All-Star D1 And D2 Competitions

[tumbleyoda]

I agree that every gym starts somewhere but every gym does not start the same way. Gyms that start as mergers may be first year gyms but they dont necessarily have first year athletes. Gyms that open in place of other gyms closing have more resources and athletes availible from day 1. The dynamic is different from someone just deciding to open up a gym.

This is not about avoiding competition. It is about trying to give more competition and quality competition.

 

[King]

And the nice thing is if anyone ever complains in D2 about not having a place for kids, just move up to D1.

 

[fabulousity]

@yojaehs the small gym vs. large gym debate makes me cringe for that very reason. no program starts from gold, gyms (just like any other business) having different circumstances but it takes a special kind of coach/owner who is business savvy and big-picture oriented to develop a program. i'm over the sobfests and pity parties about limitations, but i am 100 PERCENT in support of developing something that will hopefully remove the small gym vs. big gym tension and i am hopeful that D1 vs. D2 will solve that.

 

[tumbleyoda]

One of the reasons I believe there are too many competitions is that for whatever reason (agree with the reason or not) there are gyms that dont feel they can compete with the big dog/big name/well established programs. I used to work for a small cheer company and the one thing that was constant with most of the programs that came to our events. They did not want to compete against the big dogs and felt they had a better chance at competing - not necessarily winning - against teams more like them. D1 and D2 would solve a lot of that.

 

[nccheerdad]

I will pull some data on the number of competitions for the upcoming season (with some data pulled from last year for companies who have not yet released their '11-'12 schedules) to see approximately how many comps there are.

 

[P2169]

I like how we do stuff now... I hate all these crazy changes!

 

[nccheerdad]

For the 2011-12 season USASF Tier 1 Event Producers are expected to hold a total of 538 all-star cheer competitions nationally. This does NOT include Tier 2 and Tier 3 producers, nor does it include event producers that are not registered with the USASF. Including those, by my guess, would more than double the total number nationally. Here is what we are looking at by region for Tier 1 all-star producers...

Northeast - 94
Southeast - 166
Midwest - 129
West - 74
TX/OK/LA - 75

 

[Mclovin]

Can someone explain to me how high schools and colleges compete against other schools the same size as them and when they win a state or national championship it is highly revered and respected but in all star cheer it's "everyone had to start somewhere"? To use my gym as an example, or any other gym in our metro area, it would be next to impossible to build an empire of 400-500 athletes around here. OKC is not an affluent area for the most part, it is NOT a large metropolitan area and it is very spread out. So why would it be wrong to have our gym of 150-180 athletes compete against OTHER gyms the same size and feel accomplished in our results? Another example -- there's a gym in Fayetteville, AR. They have like 2 teams, middle of no-where with NO major city around. Absolutely insane to think they could build their gym to be the size of T&S so why should they have to have their teams compete against ours?? Why can't they compete against gyms that are in the same # bracket as them and feel accomplished? NOW, I do believe that worlds should be worlds, all divisions, all brackets lumped together. But for the rest of the millions of national championships and regional championships, it should be separated out by numbers like schools do.

 

[King]

Can someone explain to me how high schools and colleges compete against other schools the same size as them and when they win a state or national championship it is highly revered and respected but in all star cheer it's "everyone had to start somewhere"? To use my gym as an example, or any other gym in our metro area, it would be next to impossible to build an empire of 400-500 athletes around here. OKC is not an affluent area for the most part, it is NOT a large metropolitan area and it is very spread out. So why would it be wrong to have our gym of 150-180 athletes compete against OTHER gyms the same size and feel accomplished in our results? Another example -- there's a gym in Fayetteville, AR. They have like 2 teams, middle of no-where with NO major city around. Absolutely insane to think they could build their gym to be the size of T&S so why should they have to have their teams compete against ours?? Why can't they compete against gyms that are in the same # bracket as them and feel accomplished? NOW, I do believe that worlds should be worlds, all divisions, all brackets lumped together. But for the rest of the millions of national championships and regional championships, it should be separated out by numbers like schools do.

College and high schools do have divisions. In Georgia its 5 A, 4A, 3A... and so on. Colleges have different divisions, DII DI, FBS... for all their sports.

 

[Mclovin]

College and high schools do have divisions. In Georgia its 5 A, 4A, 3A... and so on. Colleges have different divisions, DII DI, FBS... for all their sports.

Exactly. So why wouldn't this work for all star?

 

[Flyer mom]

That lower level program would always have the option to move up to D1 in March for that 1 kid. And, honestly most smaller gyms shouldn't have a level 4 or 5. They don't pay well and there are tons of complaints that the big gyms have such advantages in these divisions, well, now here ya go. That decision has been made for you.

Maybe make one concession... only level 4.2 in D2. No more 4.2 in D1.

I totally disagree with you on most small gyms shouldnt have a level 4 or 5. If you look at what the small gyms have been able to do this year at some of the larger competions in level 4 and 5, I think they held there own. At Cheersport in probably the toughest division Sm Sr 5 ,I believe Cheer Command won, and GBE placed in third. The big gyms are good at what they do because they never would have gotten that big if they didnt. I think if big gyms have an advantage, is like talking to Congress, both sides will never agree. Just think there are some very respectable small gyms out there. Look at CSG Super Nationals, small gyms dominated again there. Competition is good.

 

[King]

Exactly. So why wouldn't this work for all star?

Missunderstood, thought you were saying it wouldnt work.

I totally disagree with you on most small gyms shouldnt have a level 4 or 5. If you look at what the small gyms have been able to do this year at some of the larger competions in level 4 and 5, I think they held there own. At Cheersport in probably the toughest division Sm Sr 5 ,I believe Cheer Command won, and GBE placed in third. The big gyms are good at what they do because they never would have gotten that big if they didnt. I think if big gyms have an advantage, is like talking to Congress, both sides will never agree. Just think there are some very respectable small gyms out there. Look at CSG Super Nationals, small gyms dominated again there. Competition is good.

I said most, not all. There are some small gyms that are amazing, and those would just choose to go D1 instead of D2. So doesn't that make sense?

 

[MomOf2ThatsMe]

If something like this was implemented, I would *never* go to a D2 gym. I completely get that some people live in more rural areas and don't have many options, but for people who do have options, this would surely be a small gym killer. I for one get kind of annoyed how half of the decision that are made turn into a small gym vs big debate, however, think about it this way: why would I, as a parent, invest thousands of dollars into a program my kids are going to outgrow? Uniforms, bows, practice wear, warm ups, bags, spirit wear, the list goes on and on. I wouldn't. I would take my money to the place up the road that I know my daughters will still be at in five years, and my older daughter can pass down her blingy stuff to the younger, etc. I remember reading quite some time ago how small gyms were tired of being referred to as "feeder programs". That is exactly what they would become in areas where there is at least one D1 gym. I know that the gyms always have the option of moving up levels, but a lot of the time once a gym gets a reputation as being THE gym, it's hard for the little guys to retain those upper-level athletes.

 

[The Sixth]

Exactly. So why wouldn't this work for all star?

It *could*. The flaw here is comparing cheer to other mainstream Class(HS) or Division(college) sports. The cheer industry does not have as large of a competition base as sports like football, basketball, etc. And football is still football no matter where it's played (ok 8 on 8 notwithstanding), and basketball is basketball. 12 vs 12, and 5 vs 5 respectively. There's obviously no small, large, etc divisioning to further water down the numbers.

When cheer gets to that size, I think something like this could be instituted. But how many even "nationals" events have you ever been to, and you see only 2 teams, or even 1 team in a division?

 

[King]

If something like this was implemented, I would *never* go to a D2 gym. I completely get that some people live in more rural areas and don't have many options, but for people who do have options, this would surely be a small gym killer. I for one get kind of annoyed how half of the decision that are made turn into a small gym vs big debate, however, think about it this way: why would I, as a parent, invest thousands of dollars into a program my kids are going to outgrow? Uniforms, bows, practice wear, warm ups, bags, spirit wear, the list goes on and on. I wouldn't. I would take my money to the place up the road that I know my daughters will still be at in five years, and my older daughter can pass down her blingy stuff to the younger, etc. I remember reading quite some time ago how small gyms were tired of being referred to as "feeder programs". That is exactly what they would become in areas where there is at least one D1 gym. I know that the gyms always have the option of moving up levels, but a lot of the time once a gym gets a reputation as being THE gym, it's hard for the little guys to retain those upper-level athletes.

This would get of a gym trying to retain those upper level athletes. There would be an attrition where they would go off to other things. And, not to mention, most people entering the sport of allstar cheer have no idea even what our current levels are. They are only aware of their world around them. If it is a D2 gym and they win then they probably wouldn't care to look elsewhere until they hit the upper limits of their gym and wanted more.