All-Star Division I And Division Ii At Worlds - Big Gym Separation

[CheerBank]

In my example I said 2 just in-case someone had an IO6 team or something.. just kinda thinking about those situations

There are so many variables that can be raised when making the decisions for the split. Very curious to see what they wind up being - and then what needs to be further tweaked.

 

[SparkleSpankies]

There are so many variables that can be raised when making the decisions for the split. Very curious to see what they wind up being - and then what needs to be further tweaked.

At the end of the day, I am so anti-split...BUT if the split happens and people want to give thoughts... this is what goes through my head and at the end of the day I know it will not matter what just I think.... so I type what is on my brain.

 

[Deleted member 382]

Would this solution seem better - take the amount of worlds age athletes into consideration, so anyone that is of worlds age each year determines your division? It seems to complicated to me, but at the same time, this could help with those who have a lot of tinys and mini... so basically each year you are looking at how many athletes ages 12 and up. Make the cut-off like 80 or less along w/ no more then 2 worlds elligible teams D2 and all others D1?

I don't know how well I thought that out but it just came to mind and I babbled.

The idea of only using world age athletes to determine the "size" of the gym makes sense to me. There are several states that do not allow kids to do both HS cheer and allstars. I would assume programs in these states would most likely have a bigger pool of 6-13 year olds than 14-18 year olds.

 

[NewbCoach]

After thinking about for a while, why not look at a variation of the current system and this idea. Change the qualifying for worlds - ie less bids for the D1 championship so that only the elite that given year are there - anyone can win a bid but there is only say 10? to give out in each division. Then have a D2-large and D2-small for remaining bids - say 10 each as well. This gives larger and smaller gyms other than the powerhouses the chance to compete and have a chance at winning their division, gives all gyms a chance to win a bid, can maybe worked to keep worlds around the same size (not sure how many teams were in qualifying stages but looked like a lot) and still keeps the D1 elite. Give globes to D1 and come up with something different but still prestigious for D2.

 

[cheernerd5678]

Would this solution seem better - take the amount of worlds age athletes into consideration, so anyone that is of worlds age each year determines your division? It seems to complicated to me, but at the same time, this could help with those who have a lot of tinys and mini... so basically each year you are looking at how many athletes ages 12 and up. Make the cut-off like 80 or less along w/ no more then 2 worlds elligible teams D2 and all others D1?

I don't know how well I thought that out but it just came to mind and I babbled.

I like that idea but I think 80 is kind of low. My gym has about 50 on our allstar teams, six of those are on our mini team. Of the rest, only 4 or 5 are under the age of twelve. So that puts us around halfway to being a big gym? Our highest level right now is level 3... so I don't think we're halfway to being able to compete with the big dogs. IDK. Eighty seems low - that's enough for 4 filled out small senior teams. I feel like it should be at least a hundred, to give you a senior team levels 1-5? Eighty just seems so low...

 

[SparkleSpankies]

I like that idea but I think 80 is kind of low. My gym has about 50 on our allstar teams, six of those are on our mini team. Of the rest, only 4 or 5 are under the age of twelve. So that puts us around halfway to being a big gym? Our highest level right now is level 3... so I don't think we're halfway to being able to compete with the big dogs. IDK. Eighty seems low - that's enough for 4 filled out small senior teams. I feel like it should be at least a hundred, to give you a senior team levels 1-5? Eighty just seems so low...

I was just thinking a small team out of a small gym needs only 20... assumed that most are lower then level 5... like I said, typing and thinking at the same time.. 100, 150, whatever it may be...

 

[BuegeSmalls]

okay - so i'm attempting to answer my own questions here... **disclaimer** all numbers estimations


GBE only has 7 teams, ~140

.

Are you counting the teams from their second location in this? I feel like between the two gyms they have more than seven teams.

 

[NJ Coach]

What if the D1/D2 thing was like leagues in soccer. The elite (d1) have to finish with a certain record to stay in...bottom 2 teams are dropped to D2. The top 2 teams in D2 would move up to D1 at the end of the season. Obviously, details would need to be worked out...but something like that intrigues me.

 

[RockstarCheer]

we all know there are the mega gyms, like both CA's, CEA, ACE, WC, MT, Stingrays etc. but i would love if some gym owners/reps could post the actual number of kids in their program. I know Brandon, Rockstar, GBE, Cheer Force, etc. are all amazing, but in my mind at least, I think they have smaller programs. I know they aren't small and if any of those programs were in D2 I'm sure someone would be mad because they are so good... but i don't recall that many other teams coming out of the gym.

say 250 is our number. how many programs that attended worlds last year had over 250?

and if this really takes off, do you see smaller gyms cutting kids to stay D2 in our future?

We have 11 cheer teams. We have around 230-260 1st time participants depending on the time of the year


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[cheer25mom]

to be honest im very skeptical, and havent been convinced this is a good idea yet. but im wondering, what classifies a "small gym"? what if theres a gym that has over the "small gym" numbers, but only a small portion are of senior age and even eligible to compete? so say a gym has a LOT of mini, youth and junior teams (which could put them over the number), and only one worlds team? would they then be classified into a large gym and put in division 1?

Im also a little skeptical about the world championship title losing its meaning. Being a world champion is such an honor, but would being world champion of division 2 be the same? im guessing probably not, but im not sure.

This exactly, plus I think that the multiple locations rule hurts some rural programs. We are part of a 2location gym that serves 2 communities spread over a wide geographic area. They are essentially 2 separate gyms that would each qualify as a small gym on their own, but under the current rules we are excluded. I think that as long as there is no crossover between facilities they should be allowed to count as separate gyms.


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[Jessicalynn]

I still think this is a bad idea ..... And the way people want to separate the divisions makes it worse and more complicated. Just my opinion


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[brynnmerrill93]

Why would they have to eliminate one of them? (Serious question, not sarcastic!!)

Because in this proposal, there is only four divisions. Small and medium senior, and small and medium coed. So they either have to have two teams compete in the same division, or they take less athletes to worlds all together.


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[Jennie]

Because in this proposal, there is only four divisions. Small and medium senior, and small and medium coed. So they either have to have two teams compete in the same division, or they take less athletes to worlds all together.


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I believe the proposal meant that the new D1 and D2 would only be in the small and medium divisions and large would be left as it is

 

[BuegeSmalls]

Because in this proposal, there is only four divisions. Small and medium senior, and small and medium coed. So they either have to have two teams compete in the same division, or they take less athletes to worlds all together.


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I just assumed they were just going to do these four divisions with D1 & D2 and large senior & large coed would stay the same because they aren't as big of divisions.

 

[RaRaMama]

edit: Sorry for the length....just kept going lol :)

In keeping with you CFB comparision, FBS vs football subdivision teams have nothing to do with size. Schools like Noter Dame (8300 undergards) or U of Miami (10 300) can compete at the FBS level if they choose to against the OSU's Alabama's or other 50K plus schools. The teams choose which division to compete in. It works specifically because the teams choose where to compete. Size has nothing to do with it.

Furthermore, big schools that compete in the Football Subdivision don't dominate - the top kids don't want to compete their so they will go to the lower level FBS schools and try to upset the big dogs before going to the subdivision. Basically the lower division are for teams that just are not there and know they are not going to be there and they are good with a lower level championship.

IMO the problem with limiting D1 based on gym sizes is that you will basically have athletes leaving small gyms for the chance to compete in D1 at worlds. This can only serve to hurt small programs who will have an even harder time trying to grow a high level program. This will just serve to feed the established teams and hurt the small up and coming gyms.

I am new to the cheer world, so I don't know how big GBE, PCM, Mac's etc are but from how they are talked about they would seem to be smaller programs than the big names but it would be wrong not to have them competing, they are great teams that could easily win and only seem to be getting better - that would stop pretty quickly if they were told they had to compete in D2 and half their athletes left for a D1 team. Can't blame the athletes, they are doing what the rules force them to do to compete at the highest level.

This will also not only effect level 5 teams, any parent who has a younger CP that shows the promise to reach L5 will go to a big name gym first because if they can make it to that level (even if they can't), because those are the only gyms that will compete in D1. There will be a ripple effect down to the lower levels as athletes are driven to the top gyms even more.

The big will get bigger and the small will struggle on more than they already do if you force small gyms into D2 based soley on arbitrary numbers. If you just want to status quo with the top 10-15 gyms remaining dominant this is a great idea, if you want to build the sport beyond those team I think you have to let the small gyms compete in D1 if they choose.

If teams are putting themselves in the wrong division the market will take care of it - no parent is going to want to put their kid on a team that gets destroyed at D1 worlds when they should be in D2 and conversely, I would hope that most athletes (and likely parents) would not be satisfied winning D2 when they know they should be in D1. Given the parents are still footing the bill this should be self correcting for gyms.

A lot of what you are describing is already happening though...a lot of kids/parents are already leaving small gyms for big gyms for the chance to win a Worlds ring. Our gym last year had an amazing L5 athelete that has one more year of senior eligibility, and she chose to try out for a Worlds winning team....would she have stuck around if the old team had a better shot to win in small coed? I don't know....but I think it's more likely that kids will stay put if they think they have a chance. I think the problem now is NoName Allstars can get an at-large bid, but then competes against 60 other programs that have a bigger athlete pool to pull from and have very little chance. I think, while not a perfect idea or solution, this offers smaller programs an opportunity to be competitive where they are...once they grow and develop into a large program, they can be competitive there. Just my two cents.