All-Star Division I And Division Ii At Worlds - Big Gym Separation

[5-6-7-8]

My suggestion is to have 3 thresholds:
Gym size somewhere between 150-175 combined and not including prep etc.
Number of worlds teams 1 or 2 teams (the mega gyms tend to have multiple worlds teams)
Less than 2 or 3 locations

So even if you only have150 kids but you managed to have 3 worlds teams you're d1

Pick the specific numbers and decide if someone can opt into d1 and you'll be set

I like this. I don't think the answer is going to be one criterion, but rather a combination.

One good test would be to test out the division criteria in last years set of teams to see the result and tweak from there. It will never be 100% right but I can live with close enough.


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[icame2WERQ]

I want to let this go, but I can't. I don't think you can put a TEAM in D1 and not the whole gym. So Twisters and World Cup would be D1. They are powerhouse gyms. Maybe those specific teams aren't, but that doesn't mean the gym isn't. This isn't a team thing, it's a gym thing, and you have to have some criteria (namely, gym size). You can argue logistics, but it needs to be simple. It also needs to be something where if a team thinks they can take it all, they can go for it against the big dogs if they want to. If you get a paid bid, you can use it the same as normal-either in D2 (if you qualify) or D1. You get the paid, awesome. I don't think anything about the bid process needs to change. If you think nobody in D2 would get a paid bid, who cares? Most of those programs that are not in the top 5 and would be D2 are going on at larges and partials anyways.

Also, my love for Cheerforce will never go away. Never ever. :cloud9:

I didn't necessarily group them by gym, which I probably should have, I just grouped them into where I think they would be most competitive.

And trust me I LOVE CF as much as anyone!

 

[5-6-7-8]

Overall, I love the idea!

Cheapening Worlds - Just about every sport (pro, college, HS...) has its varying levels of "championships" and it doesn't do anything to take away from the "big" championship. For some athletes, winning a championship in minor league baseball may be the end goal, where for others it is an intermediate goal. Both instances are OK. There are some cheer gyms who for varying reasons may never become a big powerhouse / mega gym capable of flying in athletes, offering scholarships, etc. and that's fine. Now that the Summit is over and done, I don't think many would ever say it took away from Worlds. In fact, for my CP it made the desire to get to Worlds even greater.

Criteria - Definitely open to more than one. I like @CGAcheer's suggestion of a combination of gym size, number of locations, and number of worlds teams.

Gym size - just level 5 athletes, percentage of level 5 to lower level athletes, entire gym, with / without prep...that part I don't know. I think using last year (or more) to test out the theories may help refine the criteria.​

Number of locations - no gyms with multiple locations in D2​

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Number of worlds teams - a smaller gym that can field more than 1 worlds gym should be D1. (This would prevent larger gyms from spinning off a "Level 5 entity" of some sort.)​

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Worlds / Number of bids - Financially, does USASF "need" to give out the at-large bids to help fund the event? (This is my assumption, but you know what they say...) Based on this theory, simply reducing the number of bids to what would almost be the equivalent of D1 wouldn't work. I think we sort of need the D2 teams.

International teams - I know the ages for the divisions don't really mesh, but I feel some international teams could find a home in D2 somehow. It would be great to see some more international teams compete with similarly skilled teams.

Smaller programs who want to compete "up" - I am not against teams who want a shot at the "big dogs." Maybe requiring a few competition scores higher than some threshold percent of perfection to "appeal in" to D1? Though I don't know how much of an issue this would be?

Better to be 80% right than 100% wrong - I would love to see something put out with the expectation that it may / will need to be refined after trying it out, rather than it never happening because 100% agreement could never be reached (it won't.)

 

[mollymags]

Those teams that go to worlds without a paid bid and do well are the exception, not the rule. It's my understanding (and I think @BlueCat has discussed this before) that no team, outside of level 6, has won on an at large bid. And very few have medaled.

And as the exception, should they be relegated to division 2? I don't think anyone's saying that it's a hard and fast rule that paid bid winners are absolutely better than the at-large bid winners, but it's definitely a pretty solid indicator.

Didn't Jags go on an at large when they won small senior in 2006? I thought they did but I might be remembering wrong!


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[AndrewSky]

I know for sure that Sparkle won on an At Large, I believe there is one other team.

 

[Cheer_Explosion_Coach]

Yes App State was happy they won and they should be. And no one confused them with Alabama (can't remember when it was LSU last win). :)

But one reason there is a difference is that the venues where they win are different. Winning in Pasadena or New Orleans is not given the same prestige as winning in Frisco TX or Chattanooga TN.

So you need to decide if you want Worlds to be the best or not.


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Funny story is App State played LSU that following season and it wasn't a close game at all.

I think D2 finals shouldn't be in the HP maybe have them compete in the arena. And finals in Jostens.


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[dustinfromdiamonds]

This might have already been said, I only got to page 3 of this thread before I lost interest and decided to put in my own thoughts.

I don't think having a small gym division at worlds would take away any prestige from the large gym division. Whether you are "D1" or "D2" caliber, there are more things in this sport than just winning (and in what division you won). I've lost plenty of times as an athlete, but still felt great because I knew the routine my teammates & I put on the floor was to the best of our ability. I've also won before, and in the back of my mind knew that we really didn't accomplish anything (whether we had no competition, didn't hit, or just plainly the title wasn't prestigious & meant nothing.) This opens a door up for smaller programs to go to worlds hit a routine, feel great, and be rewarded for it.

Hope someone sees where I'm coming from.


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[brynnmerrill93]

What about gyms like California All stars who have a team in small coed, medium coed, and large coed? This means they would have to eliminate one of the teams all together. I'm not a huge fan of the DI and DII thing, but if it happens, you can't just eliminate the large divisions all together.


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[Jennie]

What about gyms like California All stars who have a team in small coed, medium coed, and large coed? This means they would have to eliminate one of the teams all together. I'm not a huge fan of the DI and DII thing, but if it happens, you can't just eliminate the large divisions all together.


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Why would they have to eliminate one of them? (Serious question, not sarcastic!!)

 

[CheerBank]

Let's say that a team from a gym who falls into D2 because of size has the option of going D1 because they received a full paid bid, but decides to stay D2. And they win D2. Would that force them into D1 the following year or would they continue to have the option of staying in and dominating D2?

 

[CoachTamara]

Let's say that a team from a gym who falls into D2 because of size has the option of going D1 because they received a full paid bid, but decides to stay D2. And they win D2. Would that force them into D1 the following year or would they continue to have the option of staying in and dominating D2?

I don't think you have to force them. If they are a small gym, they have the same struggles as other small gyms. What if those kids graduate? Leave? If they dominate, they dominate. The same gyms seem to cycle at regular worlds, and I think the same would happen in D2. Also, D1 is still going to be the big dogs. If you are winning in D2, don't you think most gyms would want to try their luck against the major players always? Even if you keep winning D2, everyone still knows it's D2. It's not the same.

I think the combination of things makes it all way too complicated. The struggle is that there are two types of gyms-big huge mega gyms that win worlds consistently, and medium gyms that are super talented but cannot break through. If you go by gym size of all locations, that should eliminate the mega gyms, allow the medium sized gyms to compete against other gyms of their size and caliber, and if they think "this is the perfect storm of talent-we could win worlds" then they can go D1. That seems simple. The hardest part would be determining that cut off number for gym size, but if you do some basic math I'm sure there would be a pretty obvious range that would make sense.

 

[SparkleSpankies]

Personally, I think if there is a D1 and a D2, any bid event can give their "paid bids" to the teams that deserve it. If it's a mega gym that earns the paid, they get the paid, if it is a smaller gym who deserves the paid, give them the paid. I don't think gym size should have anything to do w/ who receives the paid bids and who doesn't.

 

[retiredl5cheer]

Why does having more than one location automatically put you in DI? We have two locations: one with about 125 (guessing) kids, one with less than 50. They're over 1.5 hours apart and function as separate gyms, meaning that we don't cross kids over between the two. This year we're fielding a senior 5 out of our bigger gym. Considering that we're pulling this team from one location (with the exception of 1 athlete who is making the drive to compete her L5 skills), what makes the second gym of 50 kids relevant in the Worlds division discussion?

This is a serious question, so please be kind, even if you think I'm an idiot for asking. :confused:

 

[Ashley]

Why does having more than one location automatically put you in DI? We have two locations: one with about 125 (guessing) kids, one with less than 50. They're over 1.5 hours apart and function as separate gyms, meaning that we don't cross kids over between the two. This year we're fielding a senior 5 out of our bigger gym. Considering that we're pulling this team from one location (with the exception of 1 athlete who is making the drive to compete her L5 skills), what makes the second gym of 50 kids relevant in the Worlds division discussion?

This is a serious question, so please be kind, even if you think I'm an idiot for asking. :confused:

In the world of cheer gyms, 1.5 hours apart isn't that far, especially considering the distance some people travel. It's not unreasonable to assume that a gym with multiple locations would be far more forgiving of athletes moving between the two than they would about an athlete moving to a team at another gym or even taking a class at another gym. They tend to share resources/coaching as well.

Anyway, that's my thought for that reasoning.

 

[CoachTamara]

Why does having more than one location automatically put you in DI? We have two locations: one with about 125 (guessing) kids, one with less than 50. They're over 1.5 hours apart and function as separate gyms, meaning that we don't cross kids over between the two. This year we're fielding a senior 5 out of our bigger gym. Considering that we're pulling this team from one location (with the exception of 1 athlete who is making the drive to compete her L5 skills), what makes the second gym of 50 kids relevant in the Worlds division discussion?

This is a serious question, so please be kind, even if you think I'm an idiot for asking. :confused:

Honestly, I would take all locations into consideration because otherwise you are getting too complicated. How do you decide what makes a location able to cross over athletes to their other location and what doesn't? Miles? I used to drive two hours to my gym to be on a level 5 team. I don't think distance can be a deciding factor anymore, especially when you have kids flying to their gyms now to be on specific teams. However, I don't think two locations should put you into D2. I think it should be total number of kids in your gym with all locations... If you have 175 kids total, I would think that still makes you a D2 gym.

The more criteria you place on this, the more complicated it gets. My personal thought is you take total athletes within a gym. If you have over XXX amount, you are automatically D1. If not, you are D2 OR you can choose to go D1.