All-Star Division I And Division Ii At Worlds - Big Gym Separation

[Dixie]

Funny thing...if this was pitched as adding an elite division (instead of adding D2), it probably would be a much easier sell.


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That sounds so much better! I'd rather elevate some teams than demote others.


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[Tosh]

Coming late tot he party, but here is my two cents.
I like the idea of a D1 DII split. This is the same issue UCA Nationals had a few years back when they decided to split to a DI DII competition format. At one point you had 70+ teams in the same division and lets face it, there is a huge advantage between Large gyms vs smaller gyms; same as with large schools vs smaller schools. Having a school with 2000 kids to choose from vs a school with 1000 or less does make a big difference in the amount of talent options you have.....I see it the same way with Big vs Small gyms.
the way the structure is set up now a large gym can pick their "cream of the corp" and compete small and win everytime.....That does not seem fair to me. and even altering this structure from a number basis (large = 20+ athletes) to say all lagre gyms must compete as large will not work, so that leaves a DI and DII split.
When you have so many teams in one division, I do not think it will take away anything from the winners; I just think it makes it a more even playing field.

 

[CheerBank]

Alright, so the new proposal is

We will create a new d1 division exclusively for gyms that have at least 176 kids in their program, 2 worlds teams, or have placed top 3 in the last 3 years.

Any word on whether D1 and D2 would be held same weekend/same venue?
I like this because it encourages smaller gyms to either grow their programs, work even harder to improve their current athletes' talents so as to have more than one Worlds team, or both. And if they chose not to or just do not have the growth potential or talent pool, they know they will be competing at D2.
I still however do not see how this will stop level 5 athletes who are now at D2 gyms from leaving to go to D1 gyms.

 

[Tosh]

Any word on whether D1 and D2 would be held same weekend/same venue?
I like this because it encourages smaller gyms to either grow their programs, work even harder to improve their current athletes' talents so as to have more than one Worlds team, or both. And if they chose not to or just do not have the growth potential or talent pool, they know they will be competing at D2.
I still however do not see how this will stop level 5 athletes who are now at D2 gyms from leaving to go to D1 gyms.

I don't know the answer to your question. But as far as stopping athletes from leaving a DII gym to go to a DI gym, it think it will work. because now DII gyms will have the same opportunity to win a title as a DI gym....therefore, there will be no reason to switch.

 

[p.o.k.]

I don't know the answer to your question. But as far as stopping athletes from leaving a DII gym to go to a DI gym, it think it will work. because now DII gyms will have the same opportunity to win a title as a DI gym....therefore, there will be no reason to switch.

Division 2 will always be looked upon as a lessor title and athletes will still leave those gyms division 2 gyms if possible. Just in the way posts are worded in this entire thread - "leveling the playing field" and "only the elite will be in division 1". Frankly I think athletes may feel worse about themselves to be grouped in a division that is looked down upon especially if this proposal is not based on a concrete criteria and even in this case I do not think it will help.

 

[kristenthegreat]

I don't know the answer to your question. But as far as stopping athletes from leaving a DII gym to go to a DI gym, it think it will work. because now DII gyms will have the same opportunity to win a title as a DI gym....therefore, there will be no reason to switch.

But if one division is perceived to be more or another less, who wants to win the secondary title?

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[callmecoach]

But if one division is perceived to be more or another less, who wants to win the secondary title?

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I think there are kids with a strong allegiance to their home gyms that would make the decision to stay if they had a chance at a DII title. While a Worlds or NCA title is the ultimate goal, it's the only ultimate goal available right now for L5 kids who want to win a big championship. If there were a DII championship that, while obviously not the same as DI, was prestigious in its own right, there are kids who would stay because their love for their home gym outweighs their need for a DI title over a DII title. That said, there are definitely kids who would still leave to chase the DI title. But I don't think it would be all or even most of them.

 

[Tosh]

But if one division is perceived to be more or another less, who wants to win the secondary title?

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Why would it be a secondary title? All girl D1 champs and All girl D2 champs....All it means is that one is from a large gym and the other is from a small gym.....there is no greater or lesser title. I can see some individuals thinking this way but I think it will change once it gets started.
Two years ago at UCA nationals, the small D2 champions won their category by over 6 points. Infact they had the highest score of all the teams (including co-ed) and D1. So clearler the better team of both devisions.
Point being that, yes individuals with try to make one "better" than the other, but the scores will tell a different story....
As with anything you will get some resistance, it happened when UCA first made the split, now no one mentiones it and there is no difference.....

 

[callmecoach]

Why would it be a secondary title? All girl D1 champs and All girl D2 champs....All it means is that one is from a large gym and the other is from a small gym.....there is no greater or lesser title. I can see some individuals thinking this way but I think it will change once it gets started.
Two years ago at UCA nationals, the small D2 champions won their category by over 6 points. Infact they had the highest score of all the teams (including co-ed) and D1. So clearler the better team of both devisions.
Point being that, yes individuals with try to make one "better" than the other, but the scores will tell a different story....
As with anything you will get some resistance, it happened when UCA first made the split, now no one mentiones it and there is no difference.....

It depends how it's split. Even if it's split by size of gym only, D1 is going to be far more advanced skill/score wise than D2. Maybe this could change over time, except as D2 teams continue to be successful many of them will grow in gym size, presumably qualifying them eventually for D1, which means D1 would continue to have more skilled teams than D2.

If it's split by some type of minimum score than this difference would be even more cut and dry and would always remain.

 

[Tosh]

It depends how it's split. Even if it's split by size of gym only, D1 is going to be far more advanced skill/score wise than D2. Maybe this could change over time, except as D2 teams continue to be successful many of them will grow in gym size, presumably qualifying them eventually for D1, which means D1 would continue to have more skilled teams than D2.

If it's split by some type of minimum score than this difference would be even more cut and dry and would always remain.

right out of the gate we are assuming that all larger gyms have more talented athletes that smaller ones. I do not think that is a good assumption to make. I think that there are smaller gyms with lots of talent; however the leave for the larger gyms because of the presteige....If they could get the same presteige at their local gym, they would stay.
And I hope I am not missing anything, but I am speaking from the aspect of only size of gym....nothing else, same competition, same score sheet, same everything; just split into two divisions depending on size of gym only......
Quick question: Aren't the kids that travel hours to go to a big well known gym as talented and the kids that attend the same gym but live closer? So why are we assuming that if they stay locally at the smaller gym they are not as talented?
I think this is the issue that spliting into two divisions will settle. Kids that commute hours to and from practice, can now stay at their local small gym and still have the presteige of a "World Champion" title as a large gym.....I think that is what this is all about.....or maybe I got it wrong? it wouldn't be the first time.

 

[callmecoach]

right out of the gate we are assuming that all larger gyms have more talented athletes that smaller ones. I do not think that is a good assumption to make. I think that there are smaller gyms with lots of talent; however the leave for the larger gyms because of the presteige....If they could get the same presteige at their local gym, they would stay.
And I hope I am not missing anything, but I am speaking from the aspect of only size of gym....nothing else, same competition, same score sheet, same everything; just split into two divisions depending on size of gym only......
Quick question: Aren't the kids that travel hours to go to a big well known gym as talented and the kids that attend the same gym but live closer? So why are we assuming that if they stay locally at the smaller gym they are not as talented?
I think this is the issue that spliting into two divisions will settle. Kids that commute hours to and from practice, can now stay at their local small gym and still have the presteige of a "World Champion" title as a large gym.....I think that is what this is all about.....or maybe I got it wrong? it wouldn't be the first time.

I don't think you're missing anything. My point was just that while not ALL larger gyms have more talent than ALL smaller gyms, that is typically how it is. Larger gyms have larger athlete pools. If you look at the Top 3 in each division at Worlds this year, the huge majority (if not all, I'm not going to go check) are from large gyms. The numbers being thrown out there as a "large" gym are 150-200+ kids. We're not talking just mega gyms here as being large gym and D1.

ETA: For the record, I am a supporter of this proposal. I just think there will definitely be a difference in skill level between the two divisions and I think that's how it should be as that is the whole purpose of creating divisions.

 

[Deleted member 15]

right out of the gate we are assuming that all larger gyms have more talented athletes that smaller ones. I do not think that is a good assumption to make.

If this assumption were incorrect we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Tosh]

I don't think you're missing anything. My point was just that while not ALL larger gyms have more talent than ALL smaller gyms, that is typically how it is. Larger gyms have larger athlete pools. If you look at the Top 3 in each division at Worlds this year, the huge majority (if not all, I'm not going to go check) are from large gyms. The numbers being thrown out there as a "large" gym are 150-200+ kids. We're not talking just mega gyms here as being large gym and D1.

ETA: For the record, I am a supporter of this proposal. I just think there will definitely be a difference in skill level between the two divisions and I think that's how it should be as that is the whole purpose of creating divisions.

You are absolutely correct; however, if you look at those very gyms and just get an average of how many of their athletes actually commute to get there, I think you will see that it is a nice percentage. If these kids stopped commuting and stayed with their small gyms, it think it will lessen the skill differnetial, if not even it out.

 

[callmecoach]

You are absolutely correct; however, if you look at those very gyms and just get an average of how many of their athletes actually commute to get there, I think you will see that it is a nice percentage. If these kids stopped commuting and stayed with their small gyms, it think it will lessen the skill differnetial, if not even it out.

It will be a long time before that starts to happen. Kids already at large gyms competing at Worlds are not likely to leave now for a shorter commute. In future years, however, kids may be more likely to choose the closer gym over the larger one that's further away. Still, I foresee there always being a skill differential between D1 and D2 because a) when you have a larger pool to choose from, you have better teams and b) that's the whole point of divisions. If a D2 team/gym eventually grows enough that they have the same skill set as D1 teams, they should then be in D1.

 

[Tosh]

It will be a long time before that starts to happen. Kids already at large gyms competing at Worlds are not likely to leave now for a shorter commute. In future years, however, kids may be more likely to choose the closer gym over the larger one that's further away. Still, I foresee there always being a skill differential between D1 and D2 because a) when you have a larger pool to choose from, you have better teams and b) that's the whole point of divisions. If a D2 team/gym eventually grows enough that they have the same skill set as D1 teams, they should then be in D1.

Okay, this will be my last comment on the subject. I agree with your comments except the last one.....this split is supposed to make an even playing field between small gyms and large gyms.....it is not about the skills. If we make it about skills, then we will be setting the presicence that D1 is better than D2, and in that case you are right. Kids will still switch/commute to the larger gyms because even if they win in D2, they will be looked down upon, or looked at as 2nd best.....which it think defeats the purpose of this proposition.