All-Star Division I And Division Ii At Worlds - Big Gym Separation

[Ashley]

that was for @Ashley
huh????:confused:

You said that Worlds should be like the Olympics. That the big countries are always going to dominate and the smaller countries never will but they go to compete against the best. The problem with that analogy is that in cheer, you can just fly across the country to join one of the big dogs. You can't do that in the Olympics, you have to compete for the country of which you're a citizen or resident.

Basically what @newcheerdad said. Without any restrictions (like in the Olympics), the big gyms get bigger and bigger and ultimately end up in a class of their own.

 

[Cheergrandma]

Since many are hung up with "D2 is not as impressive a win as a D1 win" I say have the divisions and then let the top 3 D2 teams compete head to head with the top 3 D1 teams for the "World's Champion" title.
EG. SS D1 1st, 2nd and 3rd place teams compete against SS D2 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place.

BTW, is calling it a "World Championship" correct since it is all US teams? Or am I mistaken and non-US teams also compete?

Just thinking aloud.

 

[cupieqt]

Not really a good comparison. Someone from Lithuania can't just up and move to the US the year of the Olympics and compete for them.

Nor will their country suffer in the least if they can't hang onto enough of their athletes to field an Olympic team.


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[newcheerdad]

Well said. While I still don't ultimately agree that adding divisions to Worlds is a net positive for the industry, those are good points.

As I said, I don't think it's a good idea, either. It doesn't solve the problem I noted above. It certainly isn't going to help that non-competitive small senior 5 team be any more competitive, because what the team probably needs to be doing is competing in a Division 2 restricted 5 year-end mega competition instead.

 

[luv2cheer92]

Since many are hung up with "D2 is not as impressive a win as a D1 win" I say have the divisions and then let the top 3 D2 teams compete head to head with the top 3 D1 teams for the "World's Champion" title.
EG. SS D1 1st, 2nd and 3rd place teams compete against SS D2 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place.

BTW, is calling it a "World Championship" correct since it is all US teams? Or am I mistaken and non-US teams also compete?

Just thinking aloud.

A very small number of non-US teams compete in the senior divisions each year, but they do compete. There were probably 4 or 5 teams in senior divisions this year. They tend to stick to the international divisions at Worlds since those align more with their age brackets.


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[p.o.k.]

You said that Worlds should be like the Olympics. That the big countries are always going to dominate and the smaller countries never will but they go to compete against the best. The problem with that analogy is that in cheer, you can just fly across the country to join one of the big dogs. You can't do that in the Olympics, you have to compete for the country of which you're a citizen or resident.

Basically what @newcheerdad said. Without any restrictions (like in the Olympics), the big gyms get bigger and bigger and ultimately end up in a class of their own.

World caliber Olympic athletes with resources will go where they can get trained - which often times will be a different country. Look at track and field, many athletes from other countries train at US universities. Still small leaving for large. They may compete with their country, but have lived elsewhere for many years.

I am so against the "everyone wins" mentality - because everyone can't. This will not solve the problem posed at the beginning of this thread.

 

[hiimsabrina]

Since many are hung up with "D2 is not as impressive a win as a D1 win" I say have the divisions and then let the top 3 D2 teams compete head to head with the top 3 D1 teams for the "World's Champion" title.
EG. SS D1 1st, 2nd and 3rd place teams compete against SS D2 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place.

BTW, is calling it a "World Championship" correct since it is all US teams? Or am I mistaken and non-US teams also compete?

Just thinking aloud.

There are international teams from other countries and some teams from other countries also compete in regular senior divisions although it is rare. Most compete in the international open division.

 

[MissCongeniality]

Nor will their country suffer in the least if they can't hang onto enough of their athletes to field an Olympic team.


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I think that the idea that gyms "suffer" because they can't field a top Worlds team is a huge "problem" with the mindset of this industry. Certainly the level 5 team is great as advertisement to all the Susie's moms... But it is not the bread and butter of the successful gym. The lower level teams are. So I feel like the thing that needs to be done is change the view that you are at Craptastic if your gym doesn't go to Worlds/win Worlds. I truly feel that rather than making everyone "winners" at level 5, the cheer world needs to stop being so obsessed with level 5. How to do that? I'm not sure...but certainly this board would be a great place to start since most of the conversation does pertain to level 5.

 

[cupieqt]

@Misscongeniality Let me expand on your post so maybe more people can understand my perspective. I'm hesitant to even say it because I don't want to be misunderstood as not wanting to be the best of the best but here goes:

After starting my coaching career many many years ago, I have been the director and head coach of three different all star programs. Since 2006 I have wanted to field a Worlds team. Unfortunately, the gym I worked for when Worlds began was a "hobby" gym run by two moms that eventually closed the program once their daughters aged out. I was a full time school teacher and I didn't have the money or resources to save the gym by myself. Since then, I have been working hard on building a new program in my community that is far better all around (business and skill-wise) than any that has ever been offered in our area. But we are years behind other gyms that have been building since even before Worlds was an idea.

Louisiana Cheer Force is a neighboring gym that has fielded at least one Worlds team since the early days of Worlds. At this point, I am playing catch up with them to offer higher level teams. I would probably be OK with feeding my L5 athletes to LACF if those were the ONLY athletes that would go (but honestly when I get an athlete to that level, then hell yes I want them to stay with us so we can fulfill all our wildest cheer dreams together). If ONLY my L5 athletes went to this other gym then I wouldn't have to worry about scratching and clawing our way to Worlds--only to be probably be ridiculed and mocked as one of "those no name" gyms that are just going for the experience and you have to suffer through watching.

But I won't lose just my L5's. Once those kids walk, then my L4's want to go too and then the L3's are headed out the door after them. Because of the "Worlds dream". I'd be lucky to hang onto my L2's and limp along with 30 kids total. I need to have Worlds dreams in my gym in order to stay in business. Winning NCA or Cheersport or the Summit doesn't compare to the Worlds dream. It's the cross I have to bear and so be it and I'd love to eventually be as elite as the current cheer elite, but we all know that ain't gonna happen overnight. And it won't happen at all if I can't get some sort of foothold to even begin the journey. D1/D2 feels like a possible foothold.


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[Nikaa]

I don't think that's a fair comparison... In gymnastics, it depends on your individual talent. You could be the best in the world, and you don't have to rely on your team. They can stink-it doesn't matter to your individual outcome. The same is not true in cheer. You can be the best in the world, but you need at least 19 others also at your level to get you to the top.


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You're correct. But I gave gymnastic just for an example. I could use football or any team sport. The gymnastic was first that came to my mind that I know 4 countires always win.

 

[Coach Troy]

You said that Worlds should be like the Olympics. That the big countries are always going to dominate and the smaller countries never will but they go to compete against the best. The problem with that analogy is that in cheer, you can just fly across the country to join one of the big dogs. You can't do that in the Olympics, you have to compete for the country of which you're a citizen or resident.

Basically what @newcheerdad said. Without any restrictions (like in the Olympics), the big gyms get bigger and bigger and ultimately end up in a class of their own.

You really didn't read what I wrote then :(

 

[newcheerdad]

@Misscongeniality Let me expand on your post so maybe more people can understand my perspective. I'm hesitant to even say it because I don't want to be misunderstood as not wanting to be the best of the best but here goes:

After starting my coaching career many many years ago, I have been the director and head coach of three different all star programs. Since 2006 I have wanted to field a Worlds team. Unfortunately, the gym I worked for when Worlds began was a "hobby" gym run by two moms that eventually closed the program once their daughters aged out. I was a full time school teacher and I didn't have the money or resources to save the gym by myself. Since then, I have been working hard on building a new program in my community that is far better all around (business and skill-wise) than any that has ever been offered in our area. But we are years behind other gyms that have been building since even before Worlds was an idea.

Louisiana Cheer Force is a neighboring gym that has fielded at least one Worlds team since the early days of Worlds. At this point, I am playing catch up with them to offer higher level teams. I would probably be OK with feeding my L5 athletes to LACF if those were the ONLY athletes that would go (but honestly when I get an athlete to that level, then hell yes I want them to stay with us so we can fulfill all our wildest cheer dreams together). If ONLY my L5 athletes went to this other gym then I wouldn't have to worry about scratching and clawing our way to Worlds--only to be probably be ridiculed and mocked as one of "those no name" gyms that are just going for the experience and you have to suffer through watching.

But I won't lose just my L5's. Once those kids walk, then my L4's want to go too and then the L3's are headed out the door after them. Because of the "Worlds dream". I'd be lucky to hang onto my L2's and limp along with 30 kids total. I need to have Worlds dreams in my gym in order to stay in business. Winning NCA or Cheersport or the Summit doesn't compare to the Worlds dream. It's the cross I have to bear and so be it and I'd love to eventually be as elite as the current cheer elite, but we all know that ain't gonna happen overnight. And it won't happen at all if I can't get some sort of foothold to even begin the journey. D1/D2 feels like a possible foothold.


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Here's my take on this - maybe the dream shouldn't be Worlds. Maybe it should some elite competition for D2, where the levels cap out at restricted 5. And then maybe you put a restriction - and this is where @BlueCat and other big gym cats will hate me - where a program can only have one team per program in a World's division. (i.e., you can have a small, medium and large senior 5, but you can't have multiple small senior 5 teams) And then take my wacky idea of capping the number of gyms that can have Worlds' teams at, say, 75 - and what happens is that being on one of those teams is a really big deal.

And maybe your high achievers stay to be the best in a D-2 program rather than maybe (if they're lucky) being a nugget on a D-1 program.

I go back to college athletics, because I'm a geek for college sports. But there are tons of really good football players out there. But there are only a handful of spots on FBS rosters every year because of scholarship limits, which is one of the ways the NCAA has created at least a modest amount of parity. A lot of those of those kids who aren't recruited by the big boys end up playing FCS, Division 2, etc. They don't just quit the sport. And at the end of the season, those guys have a trophy to compete for, just like everyone else.

 

[BlueCat]

So what if most of the "big" gyms chose not to attend? Would that improve things for the other gyms?

 

[cupieqt]

So what if most of the "big" gyms chose not to attend? Would that improve things for the other gyms?

Nope. My kids want to compete with you. That's the point I'm trying to make. We can't compete against you, not gonna happen, but the draw of competing at the same place is what's so enticing.
@newcheerdad I understand what you're saying but out of the 2 kids I've sent "away" for L5, one of them is now on SOT med coed--no nuggeting for them on any team. They're good and want to be (and will be) recognized for their skills.

ETA: MY dream is to have an excellent gym. Not to win Worlds necessarily. But it's my customers dreams to be on Worlds teams. I have to acknowledge that.

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[MissCongeniality]

Nope. My kids want to compete with you. That's the point I'm trying to make. We can't compete against you, not gonna happen, but the draw of competing at the same place is what's so enticing.
@newcheerdad I understand what you're saying but out of the 2 kids I've sent "away" for L5, one of them is now on SOT med coed--no nuggeting for them on any team. They're good and want to be (and will be) recognized for their skills.

ETA: MY dream is to have an excellent gym. Not to win Worlds necessarily. But it's my customers dreams to be on Worlds teams. I have to acknowledge that.

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And while there's nothing wrong with that dream...I think it is crushing this "sport". Certainly when my kids played Little League it wasn't all about making it to the LL World Series. They were thrilled to have a winning record or hit a home run. During the boys' pop Warner days they may have made an awesome play and said "my goal is the Super Bowl someday", but we weren't moving them across the country or to a different team with that as the "end goal". Sure there are no doubt parents who do...but why does it seem so much more prevalent in cheer?

@cupieqt I totally hear what you're saying! I have friends who own a gym similar to yours.