Ethical Gyms

[jasoncheerdad]

My apologies if I misunderstood but, in your opening statement you said a larger gym was acquiring other gyms and trying to buy out your owner. You asked if it was "normal business in cheer?" and said nothing about the "fairness of other gyms crossing up and down". Later on you said your daughter was losing some friends to go to the larger gym because, "it wins more events." You asked, "what is this teaching our kids?" IMO, it is teaching our kids there are options out there, I never implied your daughter wasn't working hard. If the question is now, "Is it fair for a large gym to cross level 5 athletes to their lower divisions just to win?" At some events, "yes" at other events "no".

Cheer, IMO, is one of the most fair "sports" out there. While my kids go to a gym that puts their teams together by level and uses crossovers for injuries only, we don't concern ourselves with the others that are rumored to "stack" within the rule guidelines. We had a parent a few years back fretting over a gym she knew dropped from a level four to a level two and after months of getting parents and athletes in a tizzy, that team didn't even place in the top half. All gyms use strategy in building teams, for some, it is long term with steady progression, for others, it is short term for fast results.

I understand there are other options out there but this gym is offering incentives for athletes to leave their gym and join their gym. I find that highly unethical especially mid-season. Jury is still out on the "fair" thing. I guess when I was playing college baseball if we could bring down a Major League pitcher to help us win the World Series, then yes I would say it is fair. Just my opinion.

 

[MyGirlCheers]

Let's say you have a gym where 75 kids tryout. They are broken down by age and "true" tumbling only level below. Now, make your teams as strategic as possible but, remember parents want their kids to progress, as well....

Level 1:
3-5 years old /2 kids
6-9 y0/ 5 kids
10-13/2 kids
14^/2 kid

Level 2:
3-5 y0/2 kids
6-9 yo/11 kids
10-13 y0/11 kids
14^/7 kids

Level 3:
5-9 yo/4 kids
10-13/7 kids
14^/7 kids

Level 4:
5-9/2 kids
10-13/4 kids
14^/5 kids

Level 5:
10-13/2 kids
14^/2 kids

Now, think about our past discussions...The USASF adds D2 where you can cross multiple levels and parents/athletes don't like it because, "not everyone has to win". OR, The USASF doesn't add D2 and parents/athletes complain the above scenario isn't fair because a strategic Sr. Level 2 could possibly have 14 kids that are level 3-5 and 9 kids on level or below. Add in, the possibility of all comps only allowing a a gym to cross 1 up or down at all comps by age and so, they would then either have a Sr. level 4 with 7 kids on level or above OR, 7 kids on level or above and 7 below. Now, give the perfect solution.

for your awesome use of pink!

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Let's say you have a gym where 75 kids tryout. They are broken down by age and "true" tumbling only level below. Now, make your teams as strategic as possible but, remember parents want their kids to progress, as well....

Level 1:
3-5 years old /2 kids
6-9 y0/ 5 kids
10-13/2 kids
14^/2 kid

Level 2:
3-5 y0/2 kids
6-9 yo/11 kids
10-13 y0/11 kids
14^/7 kids

Level 3:
5-9 yo/4 kids
10-13/7 kids
14^/7 kids

Level 4:
5-9/2 kids
10-13/4 kids
14^/5 kids

Level 5:
10-13/2 kids
14^/2 kids

Now, think about our past discussions...The USASF adds D2 where you can cross multiple levels and parents/athletes don't like it because, "not everyone has to win". OR, The USASF doesn't add D2 and parents/athletes complain the above scenario isn't fair because a strategic Sr. Level 2 could possibly have 14 kids that are level 3-5 and 9 kids on level or below. Add in, the possibility of all comps only allowing a a gym to cross 1 up or down at all comps by age and so, they would then either have a Sr. level 4 with 7 kids on level or above OR, 7 kids on level or above and 7 below. Now, give the perfect solution.

It took me a second but I see what you did there.

 

[AngelsMum24]

Me and a couple of coaches were discussing this last night in order to field a strong level 2 team they really need to have level three skills. Having a round off back handspring no longer qualifies you to become a level 2 athlete anymore and I don't know how to feel about that.



Suzie still has more experience and knowledge than a run of the mill level 2 athlete. They understand certain concepts easier and faster. Teaching my true level 2 athletes the concept of a J-up was ridiculously difficult because tat the time had a very small amount of experience doing advanced stunting transitions.

Agreed! I find it frustrating in the prep division as well. Prep division is supposed to be an introduction to the All Star world. Hoever, there are so few rules (and how would they enforce others like limitations to practice time) it goes back to following the letter of the rule or the spirit of it. We go by the spirit of it because integrity is one of our core values.

My kids are all first year cheerleaders with the exception of one. We have limited tumbling because there is only one place that offers it in town and most find them overpriced. I offer it, but I have limited time and space so can only offer so much. It's frustrating all around!

 

[AngelsMum24]

Let's say you have a gym where 75 kids tryout. They are broken down by age and "true" tumbling only level below. Now, make your teams as strategic as possible but, remember parents want their kids to progress, as well....

Level 1:
3-5 years old /2 kids
6-9 y0/ 5 kids
10-13/2 kids
14^/2 kid

Level 2:
3-5 y0/2 kids
6-9 yo/11 kids
10-13 y0/11 kids
14^/7 kids

Level 3:
5-9 yo/4 kids
10-13/7 kids
14^/7 kids

Level 4:
5-9/2 kids
10-13/4 kids
14^/5 kids

Level 5:
10-13/2 kids
14^/2 kids

Now, think about our past discussions...The USASF adds D2 where you can cross multiple levels and parents/athletes don't like it because, "not everyone has to win". OR, The USASF doesn't add D2 and parents/athletes complain the above scenario isn't fair because a strategic Sr. Level 2 could possibly have 14 kids that are level 3-5 and 9 kids on level or below. Add in, the possibility of all comps only allowing a a gym to cross 1 up or down at all comps by age and so, they would then either have a Sr. level 4 with 7 kids on level or above OR, 7 kids on level or above and 7 below. Now, give the perfect solution.

NCA Dallas is the biggest competition there is and they allow 5 crossovers per team and the athletes can only cross up/down 1 level. If it works at NCA it can work across the board, period. It's also why I'm a fan of bottom age limits. Lets compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges at competitions.

 

[quitthedrama]

NCA Dallas is the biggest competition there is and they allow 5 crossovers per team and the athletes can only cross up/down 1 level. If it works at NCA it can work across the board, period. It's also why I'm a fan of bottom age limits. Lets compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges at competitions.

Just to clarify, you can not cross levels at all at NCA. You can cross up to 5 athletes from say a Junior 4 to a senior 4 or a youth 2 to a junior 2.

 

[AngelsMum24]

Yes, recruiting client is normal for a business to survive and there you hit it on the head. It is a business, Big Business. So, with that said our gym should go and try to "recruit" girls from the opposing gyms, middle schools, high schools, heck other teams at competition. Maybe we should even offer kids incentive like take money off of their tuition for leaving their gym and coming to ours (which is gym is currently doing). So, this business I assume you are talking about is winning because winning at whatever the cost is exactly what kids should be learning. That is exactly why we are raising a bunch of children with entitlement issues. I cannot wait for them to enter the workforce. When job A is no longer any fun then they will quit and go to job B, and then when they don't get their way quit job B and go to job C, and so on and so on. Also, my marriage is no longer interesting and hard so maybe I will just quit it also. This just seems like a slippery slope.

1,000,000 shimmies!

 

[AngelsMum24]

Just to clarify, you can not cross levels at all at NCA. You can cross up to 5 athletes from say a Junior 4 to a senior 4 or a youth 2 to a junior 2.

Thanks for the clarification! Still recovering from cheer hangover this weekend!

 

[Cheermom1969]

Just to clarify, you can not cross levels at all at NCA. You can cross up to 5 athletes from say a Junior 4 to a senior 4 or a youth 2 to a junior 2.

Or you can just make up a team at, say, level 2 that is full of your level 3, 4 and 5 athletes and take them.

I know, I know, there's no way to keep a gym from doing that but it's still frustrating. :banghead:

 

[quitthedrama]

Or you can just make up a team at, say, level 2 that is full of your level 3, 4 and 5 athletes and take them.

I know, I know, there's no way to keep a gym from doing that but it's still frustrating. :banghead:

Happens more than it should - which is one of the reasons why I love cranberry!

 

[Cheermom1969]

Happens more than it should - which is one of the reasons why I love cranberry!

Seriously. And it looks like I may need lots again this year!

 

[jasoncheerdad]

From what I have read, this scenario would never be feasible just due to their age alone.

Or you can just make up a team at, say, level 2 that is full of your level 3, 4 and 5 athletes and take them.

I know, I know, there's no way to keep a gym from doing that but it's still frustrating. :banghead:

I saw that a lot at Indy this weekend. Kind of crazy!!!!! Is that what they call Shady Athletics???

 

[jasoncheerdad]

I am just trying to figure out how we can get a hold of the elite gymnasts in our area to come tumble for our teams and let the other girls do the stunting. That seems fair right???

 

[catlady]

NCA Dallas is the biggest competition there is and they allow 5 crossovers per team and the athletes can only cross up/down 1 level. If it works at NCA it can work across the board, period. It's also why I'm a fan of bottom age limits. Lets compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges at competitions.

If you are a gym owner then you know there are several gyms that don't bring all of their teams to NCA because, it doesn't work for them. My kids are at a larger gym so, it doesn't apply to us but, being that I have a business background, I also understand that a small gym in Timbuktu doesn't have the bills of a small gym in Chicago. If a gym based on those 75 athletes needs to create at least 5 teams to pay the bills, then they can't take all of their teams anywhere, and be competitive if we apply NCA rules to all competitions. And, it still isn't "apples to apples" if based on the scenario I gave, the gym creates a Sr. Level 2 team and takes them to NCA, when technically half of the team level is still level 3, 4, 5 and they register them now as level 2 athletes to make it work. I'm a huge fan of D2, it allows small gyms to make the decisions they need to pay the bills. Once they get large enough, by all means, I love NCA rules.

 

[dawgshow]

I am just trying to figure out how we can get a hold of the elite gymnasts in our area to come tumble for our teams and let the other girls do the stunting. That seems fair right???

Actually, that would kill you on the score sheet, although I know what you are saying. Yes, you absolutely could do that.