Ethical Gyms

[jasoncheerdad]

Move to Texas!!
I use to live in Tennessee and our kids, and all other kids at competitions competed on like 3 teams all different levels.


In Texas I rarely rarely rarely see kids crossovers between levels unless just for an injury or competition or 2. That is probably because pretty much everyone in the state of Texas goes to NCA so they can't do it there so they don't do it elsewhere! Even the large mega 10 location gyms here aren't doing it. I love it!


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That is awesome and seems more fair and dare I say honest.

 

[jasoncheerdad]

Our big gym doesn't do crossovers, except for injury. There is another big gym in our area that uses them routinely as part of their gym culture. I dare say that we are just as competitive as they are without using them. It CAN be done.

We aren't yet, but I hope it can be done.

 

[Cheer Dad]

Is the issue the recruiting itself or the method being used?

While not unheard of in the cheer world isn't recruiting clients normal for a business to survive?


**Awwww isn't that cute, you have multiple user names and don't think we know**

 

[catlady]

What does it teach our kids? There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to gyms, and while the family and close knit atmosphere may be important to you, the more competitive atmosphere may be a better fit for others. And, while the small gym is working for you now, I encourage you to be "Switzerland" in your discussions. Kids that desire their hard work to translate into success is as normal as the kid that just wants to meet new friends. In other words, you may find one day while you are enjoying your much loved Panera, your child may say they want to try Subway.

 

[jasoncheerdad]

Is the issue the recruiting itself or the method being used?

While not unheard of in the cheer world isn't recruiting clients normal for a business to survive?


**Awwww isn't that cute, you have multiple user names and don't think we know**

Yes, recruiting client is normal for a business to survive and there you hit it on the head. It is a business, Big Business. So, with that said our gym should go and try to "recruit" girls from the opposing gyms, middle schools, high schools, heck other teams at competition. Maybe we should even offer kids incentive like take money off of their tuition for leaving their gym and coming to ours (which is gym is currently doing). So, this business I assume you are talking about is winning because winning at whatever the cost is exactly what kids should be learning. That is exactly why we are raising a bunch of children with entitlement issues. I cannot wait for them to enter the workforce. When job A is no longer any fun then they will quit and go to job B, and then when they don't get their way quit job B and go to job C, and so on and so on. Also, my marriage is no longer interesting and hard so maybe I will just quit it also. This just seems like a slippery slope.

 

[Aunie]

I actually find that where we are, the smaller gyms tend to have more crossovers simply because they may not offer a certain level for the child's age group. For example, my daughter is youth level 2, however she has a couple of teammates who crossover to junior level 3 because they have level 3 or even 4 skills, however our gym does not have a youth 3 team. They also compete on the youth 2 team because they want to be on a team with their peers/friends as well and that is the only way they get to be with other kids their age.

 

[jasoncheerdad]

What does it teach our kids? There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to gyms, and while the family and close knit atmosphere may be important to you, the more competitive atmosphere may be a better fit for others. And, while the small gym is working for you now, I encourage you to be "Switzerland" in your discussions. Kids that desire their hard work to translate into success is as normal as the kid that just wants to meet new friends. In other words, you may find one day while you are enjoying your much loved Panera, your child may say they want to try Subway.

I think you are mistaken my "small gym" mentality for my kid not wanting to be just as competitive as the kids in a large gym. My kid works hard and is at the gym three to five days every week trying to improve herself and her skills. Never said anything about "one size fits all" I have been asking the fairness of a large gym crossing over their elite athletes to their lower divisions just to win. Also, we do not live in an area where a large gym would even be feasible.

 

[jasoncheerdad]

I actually find that where we are, the smaller gyms tend to have more crossovers simply because they may not offer a certain level for the child's age group. For example, my daughter is youth level 2, however she has a couple of teammates who crossover to junior level 3 because they have level 3 or even 4 skills, however our gym does not have a youth 3 team. They also compete on the youth 2 team because they want to be on a team with their peers/friends as well and that is the only way they get to be with other kids their age.

I completely understand that. Gyms with less than 200 or 100 kids it is hard to fill teams. We have some that crossover for that exact same reason. I just don't understand when gyms that have 500 plus kids would have to bring multiple children down to fill positions or be competitive.

 

[quitthedrama]

I think you are mistaken my "small gym" mentality for my kid not wanting to be just as competitive as the kids in a large gym. My kid works hard and is at the gym three to five days every week trying to improve herself and her skills. Never said anything about "one size fits all" I have been asking the fairness of a large gym crossing over their elite athletes to their lower divisions just to win. Also, we do not live in an area where a large gym would even be feasible.

The crossover debate has been in place for years. I am not a fan of crossing to lower levels, but USASF is completely fine with it and they continue to allow crossovers with each rule cycle, so your anger should really be with the governing body and not with the gyms.

 

[jasoncheerdad]

The crossover debate has been in place for years. I am not a fan of crossing to lower levels, but USASF is completely fine with it and they continue to allow crossovers with each rule cycle, so your anger should really be with the governing body and not with the gyms.

I am not angry, I just don't understand the fairness in it.

 

[catlady]

I think you are mistaken my "small gym" mentality for my kid not wanting to be just as competitive as the kids in a large gym. My kid works hard and is at the gym three to five days every week trying to improve herself and her skills. Never said anything about "one size fits all" I have been asking the fairness of a large gym crossing over their elite athletes to their lower divisions just to win. Also, we do not live in an area where a large gym would even be feasible.

My apologies if I misunderstood but, in your opening statement you said a larger gym was acquiring other gyms and trying to buy out your owner. You asked if it was "normal business in cheer?" and said nothing about the "fairness of other gyms crossing up and down". Later on you said your daughter was losing some friends to go to the larger gym because, "it wins more events." You asked, "what is this teaching our kids?" IMO, it is teaching our kids there are options out there, I never implied your daughter wasn't working hard. If the question is now, "Is it fair for a large gym to cross level 5 athletes to their lower divisions just to win?" At some events, "yes" at other events "no".

Cheer, IMO, is one of the most fair "sports" out there. While my kids go to a gym that puts their teams together by level and uses crossovers for injuries only, we don't concern ourselves with the others that are rumored to "stack" within the rule guidelines. We had a parent a few years back fretting over a gym she knew dropped from a level four to a level two and after months of getting parents and athletes in a tizzy, that team didn't even place in the top half. All gyms use strategy in building teams, for some, it is long term with steady progression, for others, it is short term for fast results.

 

[AngelsMum24]

Well, I do personally know one of the kids very well and she has mad skills to be on a Level 5 team, but competes on two level 2 teams and one level 3 teams. She is a flyer on all. I also know this gym just had a team member on their level 2 team get hurt and brought down a flyer from their level 5 team to fill the void. Is that allowed?? Of course that kids skills are going to be crazy good. How can my child, who is a strong level 2 compete against a level 5?

Sadly, at this time, that is allowed. I can tell you that many owners and coaches are trying to make changes to where an athlete will only be able to cross up/down one level from the highest level team they are on. So if Suzie is on an S3 and J2, she would only be able to cross down to level 2 and up to level 4.

 

[AngelsMum24]

I guess I can understand it in smaller gyms but why do big gyms do it. I have read and tried to become educated on this topic, but there just seems to be no consistency.

They do it because they can, essentially. There's no rule against it. Often their justification is that even if Suzie L5 crosses to L2, she can still only do L2 skills on that team.

 

[FamousxMindset]

Me and a couple of coaches were discussing this last night in order to field a strong level 2 team they really need to have level three skills. Having a round off back handspring no longer qualifies you to become a level 2 athlete anymore and I don't know how to feel about that.

They do it because they can, essentially. There's no rule against it. Often their justification is that even if Suzie L5 crosses to L2, she can still only do L2 skills on that team.

Suzie still has more experience and knowledge than a run of the mill level 2 athlete. They understand certain concepts easier and faster. Teaching my true level 2 athletes the concept of a J-up was ridiculously difficult because at that the time had a very small amount of experience doing advanced stunting transitions.

 

[catlady]

Let's say you have a gym where 75 kids tryout. They are broken down by age and "true" tumbling only level below. Now, make your teams as strategic as possible but, remember parents want their kids to progress, as well....

Level 1:
3-5 years old /2 kids
6-9 y0/ 5 kids
10-13/2 kids
14^/2 kid

Level 2:
3-5 y0/2 kids
6-9 yo/11 kids
10-13 y0/11 kids
14^/7 kids

Level 3:
5-9 yo/4 kids
10-13/7 kids
14^/7 kids

Level 4:
5-9/2 kids
10-13/4 kids
14^/5 kids

Level 5:
10-13/2 kids
14^/2 kids

Now, think about our past discussions...The USASF adds D2 where you can cross multiple levels and parents/athletes don't like it because, "not everyone has to win". OR, The USASF doesn't add D2 and parents/athletes complain the above scenario isn't fair because a strategic Sr. Level 2 could possibly have 14 kids that are level 3-5 and 9 kids on level or below. Add in, the possibility of all comps only allowing a a gym to cross 1 up or down at all comps by age and so, they would then either have a Sr. level 4 with 7 kids on level or above OR, 7 kids on level or above and 7 below. Now, give the perfect solution.