All-Star Gi Pros

[njallday]

My two cents is I enjoyed watching the mark through more than I enjoy watching some full out videos...

That I can agree with. I also would have rather they just sat their butts criss-cross applesauce on the mat for 2:30. The marking of a routine was confusing without context because it just looked like someone got hurt in warm-ups. Heck if you're going to protest sit on the floor and hold up a sign about your unfair scoring. At least then there would be no questions.

 

[Megreg]

There is a universal problem with judging and there is clear biased, Subjective, unfair favoritism in AllStar scoring and if you don't agree you are living in a dream. I've seen teams drop 2 stunts Day 1 and their entire pyramid Day 2 and still walk away with not only 1st place but Grand Champs. Was it because their difficulty was higher, absolutely not. Its cause even though they dropped stunts, and entire pyramid and had kids walk off the floor throwing up, they STILL scored 4.9 in technique for Stunts and pyramid??? Please. Said teams also won the Summit Bids. In addition, this past year at Super Nationals, a team had 2 stunt falls Day 1 and Day 2 Killed their routine, all elite stunts, tumbling, pyramid hit and technique was far superior and the score only went up .23??? Even the Accu Score Judges agreed they we're scored improperly and inconsistent and clearly not appropriate for the routine they performed, yet the judging panel refused to change anything. Total BS and I will never believe that every team is scored the same as another. There is clear favoritism & biased judging. Period. End of Story. I can guarantee that those saying this was a temper tantrum are those from Gyms that have that clear biased and favoritism judging in their favor the majority of the time. I was not at this comp and whether I agree or not with what they did, I will never believe the scoring is 100% fair cross the board. It's too subjective and unfortunately until they come up with a way to fix the problem, it's the hard working athletes that feel the ultimate pain and confusion... It's sad really...

 

[cheerisherlife]

From the owners Facebook page:


I am the owner of PRO Athletics All-Stars and one of the coaches of GI PROS. I am addressing our teams Sunday performance and the “why” we marked our routine Sunday at Spirit Sports!

GI PROS competed in the Friday night battle where we HIT zero deductions and behind .2 from another small coed team.
Going into Saturday’s performance (day 1 of Spirit Sports Battle at the Beach) we hit even better. After placements came out on Saturday we were now 1.2 behind!

*We filled out FYI form in accuscore (who was actually helpful at the event when it came to talking to us) however no one could give us the reason as to why we went from .2 behind to 1.2

*We know our team's strengths and the Varsity score sheet and how the drivers should work and still did not agree with going from being behind .2 on Friday to 1.2 on Saturday.
The end result.......nothing was going to be done, justified, or explained. These type of variances must be fixed from the TOP people that are running the industry.

What was our purpose for having them mark on Sunday?

-To make a point that our voice will be heard and we are sick of the craziness happening on any given Sunday! So we took the control back and just did our thing.

What was NOT our purpose?

-We were not trying to shame Spirit Sports as they run a phenomenal event.
-We were not trying hurt any of the judges by showing our frustration with the SYSTEM!
-We were NOT trying to make a point about our competitor by any means! It was NOT about them!
- These judges aren’t paid what they should be & the money WE spend to go to these competitions isn’t adding up for 2:30 minutes of confusion it is causing. I feel bad for the judges who truly work hard and aren’t given a score sheet and real use of drivers to reward teams appropriately.

This wasn’t done to hurt friends, judges or competitors. This was about standing up for my team/family and letting them go out and just have fun when we didn’t have the answers to provide for our families and athletes. My athletes and families will always come first for me, the business owner. It is me that has to answer them, and I was unable to answer them the “why we went from being .2 behind to 1.2 behind.”

I don’t always have to be the winner & know there will always be better teams. My staff and I will always give credit where credit is due! This weekend I give credit to GI PROs for taking a stand, having our backs and man it was so nice to see my athletes just having fun!! Again sincere apologies to anyone we hurt by this.

Lastly, scoring across the board has reached a crisis due to the system. Coaches have pleaded for a more objective system for years, and those requests have fallen on deaf ears.
We need the powers that be, to listen to our real concerns and work with us to create an objective scoring system that we all can believe in.

Jason Graham & Holly Boulay

 

[coach12]

From the owners Facebook page:


I am the owner of PRO Athletics All-Stars and one of the coaches of GI PROS. I am addressing our teams Sunday performance and the “why” we marked our routine Sunday at Spirit Sports!

GI PROS competed in the Friday night battle where we HIT zero deductions and behind .2 from another small coed team.
Going into Saturday’s performance (day 1 of Spirit Sports Battle at the Beach) we hit even better. After placements came out on Saturday we were now 1.2 behind!

*We filled out FYI form in accuscore (who was actually helpful at the event when it came to talking to us) however no one could give us the reason as to why we went from .2 behind to 1.2

*We know our team's strengths and the Varsity score sheet and how the drivers should work and still did not agree with going from being behind .2 on Friday to 1.2 on Saturday.
The end result.......nothing was going to be done, justified, or explained. These type of variances must be fixed from the TOP people that are running the industry.

What was our purpose for having them mark on Sunday?

-To make a point that our voice will be heard and we are sick of the craziness happening on any given Sunday! So we took the control back and just did our thing.

What was NOT our purpose?

-We were not trying to shame Spirit Sports as they run a phenomenal event.
-We were not trying hurt any of the judges by showing our frustration with the SYSTEM!
-We were NOT trying to make a point about our competitor by any means! It was NOT about them!
- These judges aren’t paid what they should be & the money WE spend to go to these competitions isn’t adding up for 2:30 minutes of confusion it is causing. I feel bad for the judges who truly work hard and aren’t given a score sheet and real use of drivers to reward teams appropriately.

This wasn’t done to hurt friends, judges or competitors. This was about standing up for my team/family and letting them go out and just have fun when we didn’t have the answers to provide for our families and athletes. My athletes and families will always come first for me, the business owner. It is me that has to answer them, and I was unable to answer them the “why we went from being .2 behind to 1.2 behind.”

I don’t always have to be the winner & know there will always be better teams. My staff and I will always give credit where credit is due! This weekend I give credit to GI PROs for taking a stand, having our backs and man it was so nice to see my athletes just having fun!! Again sincere apologies to anyone we hurt by this.

Lastly, scoring across the board has reached a crisis due to the system. Coaches have pleaded for a more objective system for years, and those requests have fallen on deaf ears.
We need the powers that be, to listen to our real concerns and work with us to create an objective scoring system that we all can believe in.

Jason Graham & Holly Boulay

LOVE this! props & respect!

 

[shoptilldawn92]

I have met Jason many times and can say he is a very nice person and a class act. I truly believe he did this for the sport and not just for his team.

 

[Lablover]

Can I ask a question about the .2 to 1.2 difference between the teams. Did CJA have an “off” routine on Friday. Maybe it wasn’t that pro athletics was scored low on Saturday but that CJA scored lower than normal on Friday?

 

[justpeachy]

From the owners Facebook page:


I am the owner of PRO Athletics All-Stars and one of the coaches of GI PROS. I am addressing our teams Sunday performance and the “why” we marked our routine Sunday at Spirit Sports!

GI PROS competed in the Friday night battle where we HIT zero deductions and behind .2 from another small coed team.
Going into Saturday’s performance (day 1 of Spirit Sports Battle at the Beach) we hit even better. After placements came out on Saturday we were now 1.2 behind!

*We filled out FYI form in accuscore (who was actually helpful at the event when it came to talking to us) however no one could give us the reason as to why we went from .2 behind to 1.2

*We know our team's strengths and the Varsity score sheet and how the drivers should work and still did not agree with going from being behind .2 on Friday to 1.2 on Saturday.
The end result.......nothing was going to be done, justified, or explained. These type of variances must be fixed from the TOP people that are running the industry.

What was our purpose for having them mark on Sunday?

-To make a point that our voice will be heard and we are sick of the craziness happening on any given Sunday! So we took the control back and just did our thing.

What was NOT our purpose?

-We were not trying to shame Spirit Sports as they run a phenomenal event.
-We were not trying hurt any of the judges by showing our frustration with the SYSTEM!
-We were NOT trying to make a point about our competitor by any means! It was NOT about them!
- These judges aren’t paid what they should be & the money WE spend to go to these competitions isn’t adding up for 2:30 minutes of confusion it is causing. I feel bad for the judges who truly work hard and aren’t given a score sheet and real use of drivers to reward teams appropriately.

This wasn’t done to hurt friends, judges or competitors. This was about standing up for my team/family and letting them go out and just have fun when we didn’t have the answers to provide for our families and athletes. My athletes and families will always come first for me, the business owner. It is me that has to answer them, and I was unable to answer them the “why we went from being .2 behind to 1.2 behind.”

I don’t always have to be the winner & know there will always be better teams. My staff and I will always give credit where credit is due! This weekend I give credit to GI PROs for taking a stand, having our backs and man it was so nice to see my athletes just having fun!! Again sincere apologies to anyone we hurt by this.

Lastly, scoring across the board has reached a crisis due to the system. Coaches have pleaded for a more objective system for years, and those requests have fallen on deaf ears.
We need the powers that be, to listen to our real concerns and work with us to create an objective scoring system that we all can believe in.

Jason Graham & Holly Boulay

I can respect that.

Our team experienced a similar situation where we could not make sense of our scoring and our coaches were unable to get real answers. It was frustrating for everyone.

I hope this gets people talking about the problem of inconsistent scoring and some changes get made. I won't hold my breath.

 

[DanaBurkey]

From the owners Facebook page:

I am the owner of PRO Athletics All-Stars and one of the coaches of GI PROS. I am addressing our teams Sunday performance and the “why” we marked our routine Sunday at Spirit Sports!

Jason Graham & Holly Boulay

Oh good! I came on to make sure it was posted here. You beat me to it!! :)

 

[DanaBurkey]

Also, hearing all of this makes me LOVE what they did even more!!!!

 

[Lisa Seye]

So I was at BATB and my kids team hit zero in Arena A both days. I don’t know how or if they rotate judges, but there was something called an “athlete error” that was mentioned to them to fix after day 1. They fixed it, and had the best performance of their entire season yesterday. We just knew their score would break 96 for the first time this season, a huge accomplishment with upgrades competed for the first time this season.

Instead, after a huge improvement in Day 1 in terms of performance, cleanliness of routine, energy, timing.....their score increased by .13. However, another team hit zero both days, and their day 1 to day 2 increased over a point....taking them from 3rd to 1st (we got 2nd). After rewatching the routines everyone is like “both teams performed the same routine as day 1, both teams stepped up performance and technique day 2....so what justified over a point for one and not even a quarter of a point for another?” As a side note, this was one of our lowest hit zero scores of the season, even with upgrades....

So while I agree with the “life isn’t fair, stop throwing fits” statements, and while I agree with the “find the proper channels to influence change”....lets be real. People who CAN influence change have been asking for transparency and consistency for a long time...I’m talking TG, CA, CEA, WC, Rays....this isn’t new. My kid has been in allstar for 8 years, from level 2 to level 5....and while I can’t speak to the validity of this particular complaint with GI Pros, I can say that after a while, after begging for change, after having faith in Varsity and USASF to do the “right” thing....it just gets old. Maybe it wasn’t the mature or adult move to make, but maybe they were just tired of working their butts off to be judged inconsistently compared to other teams in the same division. I know our kids are.

ETA: I did give my kid the “this is a life lesson, sometimes you give it your all and it’s still not good enough” speech...to which she replied “Well, that just sucks.” Amen kid, amen.

*These statements are not the opinions of any particular gym, just a broke, exhausted, and “not as stupid as you think” cheer mom.*

Frustrated is the word of the day....

 

[UCFKnights07]

i guess its just a double edged sword, your damned if you do and damned if you dont, i do understand the frustration however, the scoring seems off. If competitions are going to have different judging panels, then those judging panels should be scoring within the same range.
Ive been out of the sport to long to know much anymore, but id be frustrated knowing that teams competing in Hall A were getting scored fairly, but teams competing in Hall B were getting scored more strictly/harsh, then finding out your competition gets to compete in Hall A while you get to compete in Hall B......
Although Pros score seems to be around the mark they have been receiving all season, so im kinda 50/50 when it comes to pitching a fit after day 1 and then protesting the way they did day 2. However i can understand teams frustration in this situation.

 

[Wendy Trekster]

Interesting read - and brings up many great points about scoring.

As an option, they could have (and still can) post both their Friday night and Saturday score sheets with an open letter of protest to garner support for change - I find it incredibly hard to believe they were not given an answer for the score difference, or that the score sheets don't provide the answers (though, admittedly I've never seen a full score sheet).

The one thing that could solve a lot of problems is to have teams submit their base score, much like gymnastics and figure skating with all of the scorable elements.That the base score is different at every competition is strange, to say the least. Every team knows what their choreography is designed to score.

Protesting is a wonderful thing, but I think they could have gone about it a different way --- they certainly got noticed, that's for sure.

And for all the hoopla about publishing scores - the teams could take the first step and publish all of their scores - takes the power out of the event producers and/or the corporations running it all --- unless there's a rule against that?

 

[luv2cheer92]

Interesting read - and brings up many great points about scoring.

As an option, they could have (and still can) post both their Friday night and Saturday score sheets with an open letter of protest to garner support for change - I find it incredibly hard to believe they were not given an answer for the score difference, or that the score sheets don't provide the answers (though, admittedly I've never seen a full score sheet).

The one thing that could solve a lot of problems is to have teams submit their base score, much like gymnastics and figure skating with all of the scorable elements.That the base score is different at every competition is strange, to say the least. Every team knows what their choreography is designed to score.

Protesting is a wonderful thing, but I think they could have gone about it a different way --- they certainly got noticed, that's for sure.

And for all the hoopla about publishing scores - the teams could take the first step and publish all of their scores - takes the power out of the event producers and/or the corporations running it all --- unless there's a rule against that?

The reason the base score is different at every competition is because execution is factored in, unlike in gymnastics. Every bobble, timing issue, other technique errors, etc get factored in to that base score. There have been talks of a "code of points" of sorts being used many many times in the past. But every time it gets brought up, it gets shot down just as quick because of how impossible it would be to implement in cheer. The team sizes and structure of routines just doesn't allow for that.
Worlds division teams/coaches are always the ones sharing the scoresheets that CU posts on twitter, EPs don't share those. If all divisions did that, we would be able to see them.

 

[DropAndRun]

I’d be interested to see the score sheets and comments on what the panel was looking for vs what they put on the floor.

As a parent, knowing scoring is subjective and there isn’t always a logical explanation for why you lost (as the parent of a child on a highly competitive non-worlds level 5 team this year we certainly experienced this..) this would be my preference in how our program would have handled it. (And how we have attacked day 2 in the past)

Take your score sheet, call a practice, and “fix” what they are calling your weaknesses. Whether you like them or not, winning under different panels from week to week is going to require some adaptations based on judging preference. If you don’t like the changes, get rid of them after the weekend is over. ‍ Day 2 was worth 75% so there is no reason they couldn’t have adapted and come back to win. If you don’t win, atleast you gave it your best shot.

 

[FamUsM0m]

The reason the base score is different at every competition is because execution is factored in, unlike in gymnastics. Every bobble, timing issue, other technique errors, etc get factored in to that base score. There have been talks of a "code of points" of sorts being used many many times in the past. But every time it gets brought up, it gets shot down just as quick because of how impossible it would be to implement in cheer. The team sizes and structure of routines just doesn't allow for that.
Worlds division teams/coaches are always the ones sharing the scoresheets that CU posts on twitter, EPs don't share those. If all divisions did that, we would be able to see them.

I understand how base scoring is done in cheer and I still disagree with it. In gymnastics, their base score is based on the skill itself, not how it's performed. Their final score is based off how it's performed (deductions, etc.) So why shouldn't cheer be done the same way? a full is a full, a double is a double, how it's executed should be the thing being judged. a high to high should have the same base score. The final score should be based on how it's executed (bobble, fall, dropped body position, etc). They would still be scored based on how the routine was performed but their base score would be more fair based on what's being put on the mat. It would just mean there would be more deductions/penalties/execution score differences. I feel like this would help to eliminate the confusion in scoring and also help eliminate bias scoring. They should have a panel of judges who reviews a video of each team's performance prior to the first competition of the season to assess and provide their base score. This allows the coaches to make any adjustments necessary to meet the score sheet. If there are major changes to the routine, a new video should be sent in to be re-evaluated for a new base score. Hopefully this makes sense.