All-Star Gi Pros

[luv2cheer92]

I understand how base scoring is done in cheer and I still disagree with it. In gymnastics, their base score is based on the skill itself, not how it's performed. Their final score is based off how it's performed (deductions, etc.) So why shouldn't cheer be done the same way? a full is a full, a double is a double, how it's executed should be the thing being judged. a high to high should have the same base score. The final score should be based on how it's executed (bobble, fall, dropped body position, etc). They would still be scored based on how the routine was performed but their base score would be more fair based on what's being put on the mat. It would just mean there would be more deductions/penalties/execution score differences. I feel like this would help to eliminate the confusion in scoring and also help eliminate bias scoring. They should have a panel of judges who reviews a video of each team's performance prior to the first competition of the season to assess and provide their base score. This allows the coaches to make any adjustments necessary to meet the score sheet. If there are major changes to the routine, a new video should be sent in to be re-evaluated for a new base score. Hopefully this makes sense.

I agree that something like that would be ideal, I just don't think it's feasible at this point. Nor something that Varsity or judges would want to undertake. Just about everybody is changing/adjusting their routine every week so they would have to do that for thousands of teams every weekend/competition. Plus there's all the non-Varsity comps that have their own scoring system and scoresheet (though this number continues to shrink each year). So the scoring would be completely different at those competitions.

 

[Natalia5]

While we may not agree with what they did, i have to give them props to have the guts to do something like that. Everyone complains about the scoring and nothing ever changes.
And knowing those coaches i am sure they had a meeting with parents before doing this and probably had their support.

Exactly. Kudos to them now I just hope they were able to have a productive conversation with the powers that be where everyone's issues were addressed and taken into consideration before a decision was and/or is made regarding the reason behind their frustrations.

 

[Natalia5]

They were 1 pt behind.. they could have challenged the score if they really thought something was amiss, or regrouped and tweaked something and easily could have won today.

Really though now I'm more curious how one dance, one kick double basket and one forward roll got them that high of a score. I will actually never understand scoring, even when I think I do.

(BOLD PORTION) Maybe that was the point.

 

[Wendy Trekster]

The reason the base score is different at every competition is because execution is factored in, unlike in gymnastics. Every bobble, timing issue, other technique errors, etc get factored in to that base score. There have been talks of a "code of points" of sorts being used many many times in the past. But every time it gets brought up, it gets shot down just as quick because of how impossible it would be to implement in cheer. The team sizes and structure of routines just doesn't allow for that.
Worlds division teams/coaches are always the ones sharing the scoresheets that CU posts on twitter, EPs don't share those. If all divisions did that, we would be able to see them.

Interesting - I have noticed when a skill is omitted it reduces the base score and is not technically a deduction - it would be so much clearer if they went with the gymnastics model -- base score should be the best possible score, when it is executed perfectly, with deductions for any variance from it....

 

[Wendy Trekster]

I agree that something like that would be ideal, I just don't think it's feasible at this point. Nor something that Varsity or judges would want to undertake. Just about everybody is changing/adjusting their routine every week so they would have to do that for thousands of teams every weekend/competition. Plus there's all the non-Varsity comps that have their own scoring system and scoresheet (though this number continues to shrink each year). So the scoring would be completely different at those competitions.

I have no knowledge of the gymnastics or figure skating mechanism, but I believe the competitors supply their performance elements.

There would be a need to add one or more cheer judges to check off on a list if each element is executed. You would still have the subjective parts in how well it was performed, etc. but the Varsity scoring sheets seem very specific, it would be easy enough for the gyms to provide a check list of all the elements performed in order. And easy enough to modify at each competition.

And providing a false list would do no good, they'd lose out on those points anyway by not executing. Gyms that continuously submit false lists could get sanctioned.

 

[luv2cheer92]

I have no knowledge of the gymnastics or figure skating mechanism, but I believe the competitors supply their performance elements.

There would be a need to add one or more cheer judges to check off on a list if each element is executed. You would still have the subjective parts in how well it was performed, etc. but the Varsity scoring sheets seem very specific, it would be easy enough for the gyms to provide a check list of all the elements performed in order. And easy enough to modify at each competition.

And providing a false list would do no good, they'd lose out on those points anyway by not executing. Gyms that continuously submit false lists could get sanctioned.

The issue isn't just with the lists of elements and getting it checked off, it would be assigning a certain number of points to each skill element. The way it currently works is that your difficulty score is determined by comparing what you put on the floor compared to others in your division (same with execution). This is another reason why base scores change so much throughout the season, the teams you go against can affect that. It's not just these skills get you this score, so that would also have to be developed. Which people have tried, it's just incredibly complicated for cheer when compared to gymnastics due to there being so many athletes on the floor at once. It's like a double is worth this much, but then you have to factor in how many athletes perform it, is it 50% or 75%, because one should get a higher score than the other, but that would lead to there being so many possible combinations of scoring. I think doing it this way is way more complicated than a lot of people think it would be.

 

[Wendy Trekster]

The issue isn't just with the lists of elements and getting it checked off, it would be assigning a certain number of points to each skill element. The way it currently works is that your difficulty score is determined by comparing what you put on the floor compared to others in your division (same with execution). This is another reason why base scores change so much throughout the season, the teams you go against can affect that. It's not just these skills get you this score, so that would also have to be developed. Which people have tried, it's just incredibly complicated for cheer when compared to gymnastics due to there being so many athletes on the floor at once. It's like a double is worth this much, but then you have to factor in how many athletes perform it, is it 50% or 75%, because one should get a higher score than the other, but that would lead to there being so many possible combinations of scoring. I think doing it this way is way more complicated than a lot of people think it would be.

Wow - well call me educated - I was under the impression that each team was judged on their merits, not as a comparison - I was under the impression that human nature played into the comparisons to other teams, didn't think it was an intentional part of the scoring --- Thanks for clarifying

 

[Fleximom]

I was under the impression that actual”comparative scoring”, as an actual part of the scoring, was done away with years ago?

 

[retiredl5cheer]

I was under the impression that actual”comparative scoring”, as an actual part of the scoring, was done away with years ago?

Kind of... Scoring is done within a range, so you do a set number of skills to get into a certain range, and then scoring is comparative within that range. I think it's 3 elite building skills required to get into the high range, but once you're in the high range, the difficulty and quantity of those skills compared to those of your competitors is taken into account.

 

[Nothanks]

What about just adding a bracket for execution and technique. Coming up with a code of points for deductions instead of skills (ie- bent knees=.2 deduction) and use that instead of lowering raw scores based on technique. There would need to be a lot more logistics too it, but similar to how gymnastics has E and D scores—elements put you in range, but your technique adds in and could make or break you.


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[WinstonsGirl]

What about just adding a bracket for execution and technique. Coming up with a code of points for deductions instead of skills (ie- bent knees=.2 deduction) and use that instead of lowering raw scores based on technique. There would need to be a lot more logistics too it, but similar to how gymnastics has E and D scores—elements put you in range, but your technique adds in and could make or break you.


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I feel like we kind of have that this year, with the % of well executed skills based on athletes, and then adding the drivers for 0.1 more technique score. Every good technique driver you hit gets you an extra 0.1 I like being rewarded for good technique rather than penalties for poor technique, but I don't know which way is more effective

 

[FamousxMindset]

I think code of points works when you have multiple eyes watching one gymnast at a time, this kind of practice is impossible with 20-32 kids on the mat doing skills simultaneously. I've had judges miss entire stunt sections before. We ALLLLL complain about scoring, and its inconsistencies then when a team decides to take action you complain about that too. The parents, and athletes seem to be on board with the coaches and owners decision and that is all that matters.

 

[Nothanks]

I feel like we kind of have that this year, with the % of well executed skills based on athletes, and then adding the drivers for 0.1 more technique score. Every good technique driver you hit gets you an extra 0.1 I like being rewarded for good technique rather than penalties for poor technique, but I don't know which way is more effective

But with that small of a "bump" what does it really do... Especially when it's already reflected within your raw score. That's why I think breaking it up would be beneficial. Obviously on a team of 38 missing one bent leg double would be harder but that's why it should be a large pool with small deductions that add up. And then literally just score the difficulty/elements within a range instead of allowing technique to alter it.


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[GrkChrGoddess]

I get the score frustration and all but it happens all the time... scoring and deductions are both issues... I have seen teams win jackets after having very visible errors or even legalities that should have been deductions but were never given, I have seen teams with practically the same routine perform and hit zero but the scores are just polar opposites...

i have a question: at 2 day events, is it the same panel of judges for day 1 and day 2, or one set of judges day 1 and new set of judges day 2?

i ask because then unfortunately comparative scoring will always be an issue... and with multiple judges on a panel its also an issue cause judge jane smith may say the dance is creative and score a 9.9 but john doe didn't think so and gave an 8.9... etc in my head this is how i picture it... or is it like 5 judges and each judge is responsible for just one element of the rubric? i never thought about it this way....

lastly scoring is an even bigger issue because of the LACK OF TRANSPARENCY...

 

[cheertired]

This was uncomfortable for me to watch.

I understand the point, I really do. And there definitely is a overarching problem with lack of transparency/scoring/subjectivity in our judging. Something clearly needs to be done, and should have been done a long time ago.

But wow. This would have been incredibly difficult for me to do.

Every time I stepped on that mat, I treated it as gift. I ALWAYS gave it my all, no matter how upset or angry I was about results/scores/issues with the routine.

It makes my heart pang a bit watching these kids not fully utilize that precious, fleeting time on the mat.

You only get so many competitions, so many times to perform. I'm a competitive person and always wanted to crush our opponents on the floor. But there is something to be said about going back to the roots of the sport we love. Peeling away the drama, the politics, the endless debates and money-hungry industry we know today. At the end of the day, when I stepped on that mat, all politics and issues were set aside. I wasn't thinking about the judges, the drama or Varsity when the music was on. I was enjoying the moment, soaking it all in.

Did GI Pros make a point? Yes. Undeniably so. Was it right? Who am I to judge. But personally, I could've never done it, no matter the circumstances.