All-Star How Would You Change All Star Scoring?

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BlueCat

Roses are red, cats are blue
Dec 14, 2009
4,503
19,507
I thought I would get some suggestions on ways to improve the scoring process for all star cheer.

Here are a few of mine:

1. All the scores are made public. EVERY number written down on any judge's sheet should be made available to the public. The comments are given only to the coaches of the teams.

2. Universal scoring process (with customizable variables) Having a single system would improve the judging as all training could be done on one system. My "tweak" to this is to allow EPs, if they choose, to add a variable number as a "multiplier" to each category to change the weighting of the various areas of cheer. The final score would look the same, but the EPs could adjust the value of each category if they chose. The important part is that the judging process would not change at all, the computer would just spit out the adjusted results.

3. Unofficial scoring is announced as you go. It increases total interest at the event. (Yes, awards is less dramatic, but OVERALL there is more drama throughout the event as you anticipate and compare scores all day long.) It also lessens the appearance of politics. Judges can still keep track of the scores they have given as a reference. IMPORTANT: Scores/placements are not final until coaches have had the chance to quickly review their scoresheets and lodge any protests. (Correct math errors, out-of-range scoring, etc.) This also has the benefit of allowing teams to compose themselves before being put under the award ceremony microscope.

NEW:

4. Coaches turn in a skills declaration before their teams compete. The judges have a written list of the skill elements in the routine to use as a reference in deciding difficulty. This would be in the order that they are performed in the routine. (Execution would still be subjective, and a major part of the final score.) Penalties would be given if athletes changed their skills to something easier. (Athlete throws a tuck instead of a double, flyer singles down instead of doubles, etc.) A judge sitting with the deduction judge would watch video to determine compliance with written skills. Coaches would have the ability to make last-minute changes in the case of injury or water-down decisions.

5. Expert panel annually ranks the difficulty of the most common various skill elements. Is a 1.5-up to stretch harder than a tic-tock? Is a 1 to double harder than a 2 to whip double? Is an assisted toss stretch harder than unassisted toss extension? There currently is NO standard by which coaches (or judges) can go by to decide what skills they will be rewarded for. Coaches may be performing skills they think are getting rewarded for, but the judges may not actually think it is harder. We basically need a frame of reference.
 
2. Universal scoring process (with customizable variables) Having a single system would improve the judging as all training could be done on one system. My "tweak" to this is to allow EPs, if they choose, to add a variable number as a "multiplier" to each category to change the weighting of the various areas of cheer. The final score would look the same, but the EPs could adjust the value of each category if they chose. The important part is that the judging process would not change at all, the computer would just spit out the adjusted results.
Thats what I've been saying for a while now. This allows EPs to still have the philosophies they feel are most important and keep the weight where they feel best.
 
I wish I had more to contribute but I think you summed it all up very nicely. How soon can we get this implemented?
 
4. Coaches turn in a skills declaration before their teams compete. The judges have a written list of the skill elements in the routine to use as a reference in deciding difficulty. This would be in the order that they are performed in the routine. (Execution would still be subjective, and a major part of the final score.) Penalties would be given if athletes changed their skills to something easier. (Athlete throws a tuck instead of a double, flyer singles down instead of doubles, etc.) A judge sitting with the deduction judge would watch video to determine compliance with written skills. Coaches would have the ability to make last-minute changes in the case of injury or water-down decisions.

During two day events would the teams submit the written list each day or would they submit it once and only be able to amend it in case of injury?
 
Number 4 is almost impossible with larger teams.
Example: TopGun's 16 punch front to doubles

Number 5 is definitely a necessity to reduce subjectivity across various competitions, but when a variation is performed of each skill it gets tough.
 
Love the idea of number 4...NCA College Nationals already does something similar and I find it to be quite effective.
 
5 worries me, if it is declared that a 1.5 up is more valuable than a tick tock, then why would anyone not do the 1.5 up since it scores higher. And if you know that it scores the highest there isn't much point in trying to innovate a new stunt.

4 can get complicated, especially if you are doing something that doesn't specifically have a name, and you're doin catch on passes or different stunts within a sequence.

1-3 are great, public universal scoring is the way to go.
 
5 worries me, if it is declared that a 1.5 up is more valuable than a tick tock, then why would anyone not do the 1.5 up since it scores higher. And if you know that it scores the highest there isn't much point in trying to innovate a new stunt.

They wouldn't do 1.5 ups in this case for the same reason we don't see squad ball double ups to single base straight leg scorp, tick tock with double twist to opposite one arm hand in hand. It would be too hard. Teams are theoretically already ranked on their difficulty as is, but that could change from judge to judge. Getting that score shouldn't be just luck of the draw depending on what your judge's personal opinion is on relative difficulty.

Also, if things aren't much different in difficulty, then there probably wouldn't be much difference in their difficulty score. The execution would still have a bigger effect on final rankings.

4 can get complicated, especially if you are doing something that doesn't specifically have a name, and you're doin catch on passes or different stunts within a sequence.

I agree that it is difficult to quantify everything that happens in a routine. It would take a coach familiar with the routine probably 20 minutes or so to fill that out. Why exactly, then, do we expect judges who have never seen a team get this right in 2.5 minutes, while simultaneously evaluating many other elements to the routine. Too much of our score is dependent on the luck of what the judge happens to be looking at at any particular moment.

Yes, to earlier question, coaches could amend their skill sheet at any point prior to the team's performance. No, I don't think that an athlete pulling out of a skill should be a large deduction or anywhere near as severe as if they had fallen. However, it should count against the team at least a little bit.

Also note: I DO NOT want to take creativity or subjectivity out of routines/judging. However, the parts that should be objective, in theory, should be more understandable and accurate than they currently are.
 
Number 4 is almost impossible with larger teams.
Example: TopGun's 16 punch front to doubles

Number 5 is definitely a necessity to reduce subjectivity across various competitions, but when a variation is performed of each skill it gets tough.

I agree that doing the skill is incredibly difficult. However, writing down "16 punch front to doubles" isn't particularly difficult.
 
Acro coaches have to submit a routine map WITH drawings. I don't think just writing down the skills will be nearly as difficult. We do it on 8-count sheets already.
 
for me its kinda like in level 3, everyone does full baskets. You have the option of doing all sorts of baskets but the general consensus is that fulls score higher than toe touches etc. so everyone does fulls.

I just don't want the rest of cheer to end up like that.
 
for me its kinda like in level 3, everyone does full baskets. You have the option of doing all sorts of baskets but the general consensus is that fulls score higher than toe touches etc. so everyone does fulls.

I just don't want the rest of cheer to end up like that.
I'm so over full up baskets. I really really wanted to do some kiss out baskets this year, but I know the full up is going to score harder. We have some gorgeous toe baskets too but unless I want to waste time just throwing them for fun, they won't be used.
 
I agree that doing the skill is incredibly difficult. However, writing down "16 punch front to doubles" isn't particularly difficult.
What I am saying is that you are not going to be able to see how many of those 16 did fulls, layouts, doubles, or any other skill. In order to do this you would need a video replay in order to go through the entire routine from start to finish, and that reduces time efficiency of competitions.
 
Love number 5!

I especially love the part that it is reviewed each year. That way - teams can create variations of skills in part of a routine (such as a second stunt or basket during tumbling) that will get noticed and can be included in the skill set for the next year.
 
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