All-Star Inconsistency In Judging

[CGAcheer]

So basically what needs to happen is safety judges need to be trained better & rules need to be more clear.

I guess one issue is that judges were certified and tested at the summer regional meetings and I believe there were 2 or 3 updates since then. In essence what they learned and were tested on is not necessarily 100% accurate.
There should be a process in place to make sure that the judges are up to date with the updates.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

I would think the coaches should be held accountable for an illegal move.

Excellent point. However, theoretically....some coaches take their teams to regional events to gain insight into how that EP judges. True? So if they were expecting to be screened there for legalities, then what?

 

[BlueCat]

Excellent point. However, theoretically....some coaches take their teams to regional events to gain insight into how that EP judges. True? So if they were expecting to be screened there for legalities, then what?

Then the team should still get penalized. It ultimately the coaches responsibility to know the rules and check for legalities. They shouldn't use competitions as trial runs for legality issues. There is an absolutely free, easy-to-use service for that . . . emailing Les. (PLEASE don't abuse the privilege, though. Send only questionable items and make the video VERY clear, short, and to the point.

 

[JulieP]

Excellent point. However, theoretically....some coaches take their teams to regional events to gain insight into how that EP judges. True? So if they were expecting to be screened there for legalities, then what?

I guess I am a little confused by this. I wouldn't attend an event as a screening for legalities. When I teach stunts, transitions, and pyramids to my teams I am confident about their legality within their level. Sometimes we get ideas that evolve stunts. This generally starts with the question, "Ok, so we can already do XYZ transition, but what if we spiced it up by adding this or changing that?" From there, sometimes I find myself questioning legality as the result of what the stunt evolves into, and as a result, I video the stunt and send it off to be reviewed. I guess I think that spending all the money to screen stunts at a competition is a really expensive way to do this. Plus, if I am concerned about legality and send it off, I get an answer from an expert. Then if it comes up as a legality issue at a competition, then I have the ruling and video as back up.

 

[JumpingJackFlash]

Excellent point. However, theoretically....some coaches take their teams to regional events to gain insight into how that EP judges. True? So if they were expecting to be screened there for legalities, then what?

Very true! In my job, I have to interpret rules and regulations constantly. There have been times that I've been wrong, but it's been missed or overlooked...but that 5th or 6th time I do it, I get called on it. But there have also been times I've been called on it, and have been able to prove that it is the correct interpretation.

I guess my point is, state the rules and regulations with a little more clarity, don't leave such gray areas and we'd all be in a better place!

 

[JumpingJackFlash]

I guess I am a little confused by this. I wouldn't attend an event as a screening for legalities. When I teach stunts, transitions, and pyramids to my teams I am confident about their legality within their level. Sometimes we get ideas that evolve stunts. This generally starts with the question, "Ok, so we can already do XYZ transition, but what if we spiced it up by adding this or changing that?" From there, sometimes I find myself questioning legality as the result of what the stunt evolves into, and as a result, I video the stunt and send it off to be reviewed. I guess I think that spending all the money to screen stunts at a competition is a really expensive way to do this. Plus, if I am concerned about legality and send it off, I get an answer from an expert. Then if it comes up as a legality issue at a competition, then I have the ruling and video as back up.

I'm thinking that they don't go to see if somethings illegal, (I'm assuming they don't realize they have an illegal part in their routine at this point) but as TheUltimateFan mentioned, to gain insight on how they judge and how your routine measures up on the scoresheet. You would hope that at this regional, the judges would mention your illegal move you didn't know you had and you could fix it before you go to the big show.

 

[JulieP]

I'm thinking that they don't go to see if somethings illegal, (I'm assuming they don't realize they have an illegal part in their routine at this point) but as TheUltimateFan mentioned, to gain insight on how they judge and how your routine measures up on the scoresheet. You would hope that at this regional, the judges would mention your illegal move you didn't know you had and you could fix it before you go to the big show.

I totally get going to a regional to see how your routine will add up on the scoresheet, but I guess I wouldn't have anything in my routine that I wasn't 100% sure was legal. Then again, I coach level 2 and 3 teams so I don't think there's as much grey area as in the higher levels.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

I'm thinking that they don't go to see if somethings illegal, (I'm assuming they don't realize they have an illegal part in their routine at this point) but as TheUltimateFan mentioned, to gain insight on how they judge and how your routine measures up on the scoresheet. You would hope that at this regional, the judges would mention your illegal move you didn't know you had and you could fix it before you go to the big show.

Precisely!

The intent isn't to have them screen for an illegality, but for the reasons above. However, if you had something that the coach thought was legal, by his or her interpretation of the rules, then they would hope it would be caught at the local competition before costing them a national title. I think that is fair and reasonable to expect.

As BlueCat points out though, using the video pre-screening option makes it a moot point. If it's ruled legal and you get called on it at either competition, you can produce the proof, on the spot, before awards.

 

[Cheer_Explosion_Coach]

Trying to get some insight from other coaches, parents, cheerleaders. I took my Level 2 small senior team to 3 competitions over the last two months. In our pyramid, we do a double braced release move.

At the first competition, American Cheer Power, We did our double braced release move back to sponge and then popped it back up for our lib. NO LEGALITY! FIRST PLACE!

At the second competition, Jam BRANDS, we received a LEGALITY in which they said that we must release and land in cradle or to the floor (performance surface). Concerned, I change my release move to catch in a cradle! We received fifth place. Our raw score was in first by an entire point.

At the third competition, Cheer LTD, We did our release move to cradle and were SURE that we would take first place. LEGALITY! This legality judge said that there are NO RELEASE MOVES allowed in Level 2. Our kids took second place, who also would have been in first.

One of the legality judges literally told me that it was "HIS" Interpretation. This just sounds completely unprofessional and opinionated. I then watched Stingray Large Junior 2 video from a few weekends ago where they release and land in cradle... THEY WON GRAND CHAMPION! (incredible team)

But... HOW IS THIS FAIR TO OUR ATHLETES?

Next time have Les Stella's number handy! He'll answer (even on the weekends) helps clear things right up!!! He's done this for me once at a JamBrands event. He told the judge this exact release at level 2 WAS LEGAL and we did not receive the legality. I even think he was on vacation. Thanks again Les. :)

 

[JumpingJackFlash]

Poor Les! He's going to get bombarded with calls/videos!

 

[Cheer_Explosion_Coach]

He gave out his cell number at the regional meeting over the summer. I don't think he's worried or he's just a ninja ;)

 

[BlueCat]

Poor Les! He's going to get bombarded with calls/videos!

He is insanely overworked and underpaid. (I don't know actually how much he IS paid - but whatever it is, it is not enough.) I would encourage everyone to make use of his knowledge, but again, please don't abuse that.

 

[CCuRHOT]

I have another scenario which relates to this topic. We took our teams to a regional event before we went to their nationals to get on the scoresheet. Our level 3 team got hit with a legality. When we were notified of the legality we tried our best to argue it before awards. We could not find anyone. Awards took place, our team didn't win. After the competition we proved our stunt to not be illegal. They went and watched our video and tried to get us with an entirely different legality. We proved that one to be legal as well. They would not change the results. What does one do in that situation? We KNEW the stunt was legal, so we didn't think it was necessary to check with Les.

 

[cheerinfo]

I have another scenario which relates to this topic. We took our teams to a regional event before we went to their nationals to get on the scoresheet. Our level 3 team got hit with a legality. When we were notified of the legality we tried our best to argue it before awards. We could not find anyone. Awards took place, our team didn't win. After the competition we proved our stunt to not be illegal. They went and watched our video and tried to get us with an entirely different legality. We proved that one to be legal as well. They would not change the results. What does one do in that situation? We KNEW the stunt was legal, so we didn't think it was necessary to check with Les.

I have been a safety/rules judge for many years (even before certification was available) and it burns me up that some people/judges are too proud to admit they made a mistake. We are all human. There are certainly different ways to interpret some of the rules, and sometimes, we just plain get it wrong. If I am challenged and am found to be at fault in my call, I admit it and remove the penalty. My job is not to cause teams to lose...it is to try to keep teams performing SAFELY and on the same playing field. Sometimes I miss things (not often, lol) and sometimes I get it wrong (again, not much ha), but we are human! It happens!!!

 

[MissBee]

If you're going to use Les....please try and give him as much advance notice as possible (i.e.; don't email him a video on Friday afternoon if you're competing Saturday morning)!