All-Star Is It The Judges Fault That There Is No Change At The Top

[cheerinatorXdad]

You know there's some good arguments about all this, some I agree with and some I don't.

Let me propose this for everyone to think about concerning any bias by judges.

Here's a hypothetical situation I'd like to see. What if one of the big name gyms performed as a smaller/lesser known gym? Do you think they would have received the same exact score?
For example: for med coed, SOT won right? What if they came dressed in all different uniforms and performed as gym (fill in the blank here)? Would they still have won? Scored the exact same?

(I'm not bashing on SOT here. Just using them as an example. Kudos to them in fact)

 

[Mclovin]

You know there's some good arguments about all this, some I agree with and some I don't.

Let me propose this for everyone to think about concerning any bias by judges.

Here's a hypothetical situation I'd like to see. What if one of the big name gyms performed as a smaller/lesser known gym? Do you think they would have received the same exact score?
For example: for med coed, SOT won right? What if they came dressed in all different uniforms and performed as gym (fill in the blank here)? Would they still have won? Scored the exact same?

(I'm not bashing on SOT here. Just using them as an example. Kudos to them in fact)

I'm gonna use a different gym here because I still don't think SOT should have won having dropped both days at worlds. So...

If CA Panthers dressed up in a no-name gym's uniform and competed the exact same routine they did at worlds Day 2, Yes, I think that no name team would have won.

 

[Cheerfan1234]

I'm gonna use a different gym here because I still don't think SOT should have won having dropped both days at worlds. So...

If CA Panthers dressed up in a no-name gym's uniform and competed the exact same routine they did at worlds Day 2, Yes, I think that no name team would have won.

Or on the flipside, what if a no-name gym showed up in their very own no-name uniform and performed the EXACT same routine (same music, same choreography, and same skills with the same level of execution) as one of the big-name gyms? Would they get the same high score? In some (NOT ALL) instances, unfortunately, I don't think this would be the case.

 

[Mclovin]

Or on the flipside, what if a no-name gym showed up in their very own no-name uniform and performed the EXACT same routine (same music, same choreography, and same skills with the same level of execution) as one of the big-name gyms? Would they get the same high score? In some (NOT ALL) instances, unfortunately, I don't think this would be the case.

I think the fact that South Elite in medium coed got 2nd to SOT by less than a point says yes, they would...

I remember sitting there in the milkhouse all day Sunday, and team after team (especially small all girl and small coed) wondering who the heck these teams were and where they were from. The fact that they got into the top 10 and were petty much completely unknown on a national level tells me YES a no name gym can score just as high...

 

[MyGirlCheers]

You know there's some good arguments about all this, some I agree with and some I don't.

Let me propose this for everyone to think about concerning any bias by judges.

Here's a hypothetical situation I'd like to see. What if one of the big name gyms performed as a smaller/lesser known gym? Do you think they would have received the same exact score?
For example: for med coed, SOT won right? What if they came dressed in all different uniforms and performed as gym (fill in the blank here)? Would they still have won? Scored the exact same?

(I'm not bashing on SOT here. Just using them as an example. Kudos to them in fact)

I think they might score even higher as a no-name. Higher expectations associated with a "big name" could lead to more critical judging. I think the majority of judges try to be as unbiased as possible, but I'd bet for every one who has a favorable bias toward "big name" gyms, there's one who holds those same gyms to a higher standard. If the judges' expectations of a team are really high, it's that much easier to disappoint them, too.

 

[QueenofHearts]

I agree with glitterdiva teams today throw in all this difficulty but its never clean! yes its great throw 15 double fulls but half of them are either very sloppy or under rotated! compared too orange who has the difficulty but they don't go above and beyond they work on their timing and cleanness! i hope with the new tumbling rule changes that teams will clean up! judges like CLEAN!!! its hard to watch a routine thats sloppy when everyones in sync its so much more of a WOW factor along with the difficulty! i saw too many teams this weekend with jump sections that are just awful athletes jumping at different times, tucking at different times.... pike jumps that just look like they jumped forward with her toes up, toe touches that look like straddle jumps then you have teams like stingrays, spirit of texas who have AMAZING jumps! cali wonders why they scored lower in tumbling than orange its not because they don't have enough... cali actually had more its because orange better executed their skills! their tumbling section was cleaner, their opening was cleaner HENCE THE WORD CLEAN!!!!!!!!

 

[glitterdiva]

What I think is funny about this whole thread is the person who started this thread had lots of cleanliness issues. I love PCM and have a lot of respect for them and that they are becoming a super power in California. You should look at your gym before blaming the judges. It will get you no where.

 

[Mclovin]

I'm just gonna put this out there for what it's worth...I have yet to see a "no name" gym come on the scene and look IDENTICAL in execution, choreography, and transitions as the more well known "winning" gyms. Tell me one from worlds and I'll go watch their routine. I watched every single senior club division in the milkhouse on Sunday. I didn't see any...

 

[QueenofHearts]

I'm just gonna put this out there for what it's worth...I have yet to see a "no name" gym come on the scene and look IDENTICAL in execution, choreography, and transitions as the more well known "winning" gyms. Tell me one from worlds and I'll go watch their routine. I watched every single senior club division in the milkhouse on Sunday. I didn't see any...

South Elite looked great this weekend! Although they don't have the tumbling the top gyms have they were clean on everything they did throw and it paid off this weekend and they are a perfect example of not needing the BEST tumbling to medal! I think the main problem is gyms think they need all this difficulty to compete against the top gyms, they need as many double fulls as possible which is killing them in execution because the minute an athlete can land a double a few times its added in the routine even if its not a complete double they think it will still count as one and they can say "we have this many double fulls same as "TEAM A" so we should be able too compete with them although TEAM A actually has complete doubles and they're execution is better. You're better to throw combo to fulls then doubles with the amount execution is being considered on the score sheet now a days.

 

[Mclovin]

South Elite looked great this weekend! Although they don't have the tumbling the top gyms have they were clean on everything they did throw and it paid off this weekend and they are a perfect example of not needing the BEST tumbling to medal! I think the main problem is gyms think they need all this difficulty to compete against the top gyms, they need as many double fulls as possible which is killing them in execution.

South Elite was amazing at worlds in their building skills. The rest of their routine was good but not quite as great as the other more "well known" gyms. BUT their difficulty and execution in their building skills was most definitely the BEST in the division by a long shot and the scores reflect that.

 

[Coach Troy]

What I think is funny about this whole thread is the person who started this thread had lots of cleanliness issues. I love PCM and have a lot of respect for them and that they are becoming a super power in California. You should look at your gym before blaming the judges. It will get you no where.

I am very proud of the strides my gym has taken as well as the advances of so many of my close friends programs.
I have learned a lot from the responses here and my opinion has changed from when I first asked the question. Execution and cleanliness is so important I am just still so anxious about that being the "catch phrase" since every person interprets that differently.
I am proud of our industry, from the originators or "big names" to those of us that continue to raise the bar in our own way. And as we continue to evolve I will hope and pray that the education, training, and perception of our judges does as well.

 

[garretttt]

It's still sketchy.

Im sure the judges know what theyre doing.

 

[mommadonna]

I have an idea... This comes from my time spent in science classes and labs, etc. Going back to pure scientific method. Lots of studies of one product versus another are what they call "blind studies". Here's my experiment. (Mind you, I'm not saying Worlds should be done this way, but I think it would be fun to do just one comp this way and look at the outcome.) Have every team wear the same thing. Black shorts and white shirts, for example...something plain and neat. NO team names anywhere. Assign each team a number and have them compete in the proper division, etc. This way, there is no bias on gym name, just execution. If there are well known people associated with teams who would give away the team name by being there, then they cannot go anywhere near the team when they are on the mat. Keep it top secret. Then this would get rid of the bias, theoretically. I'm not saying this would work, but I'd be interested in the outcome. Just an experimental idea...

 

[AndrewSky]

What I think is funny about this whole thread is the person who started this thread had lots of cleanliness issues. I love PCM and have a lot of respect for them and that they are becoming a super power in California. You should look at your gym before blaming the judges. It will get you no where.

I'm pretty sure he never said "my gym's teams hit well executed routines and overall clean routines, why didn't we place higher?"
I saw this as a general way of speaking. Just my two cents.

 

[glitterdiva]

I'm pretty sure he never said "my gym's teams hit well executed routines and overall clean routines, why didn't we place higher?"
I saw this as a general way of speaking. Just my two cents.

I'll give you that. However it does not appear that way and this thought had to come from something. I feel by the words that have been said that its from not placing as well at worlds.