All-Star Is This Legal?

[catlady]

I think the simplest and possibly best sandbagging deterrent is to put the level on those coveted jackets. I would hope most level 5 Susies wouldn't want to walk around in an NCA level 2 champion jacket.

I thought, and still think, this was/is a fantastic idea but, I did ask a level 4 athlete if it would make a difference to her if a jacket or ring said level 1 on it and her response was, "Disney is Disney. A ring is a ring. Jackets are jackets." At our gym, teams are set up without crossovers so, when someone is needed in an emergency, these kids look at it as an honor if they are asked to crossover on any level. It would be interesting to hear from some more athletes on the board if putting levels on rings/jackets would matter to them, or not.

 

[CLynn]

It's easy to think "oh but when our gym does it, it's ok/necessary/whatever". An athlete from a higher level just started on CP's team as a replacement for someone who quit. CP is excited about it lol. But they could have asked a kid from a tumbling class, or got by with no replacement. (Or from a same level team but I don't think anyone is age eligible.)

I agree with you and that is part of the problem! Some seemingly have no issues with athletes with fulls and level 4/5 stunting on a level 3, but think gyms that rely heavily on cross-overs is a problem. Or vice-versa. In the end all programs (I would assume anyway!) want to win and I can't blame them from working within the rules to achieve that. For some that might mean lots of crossovers, for others stacked teams and athletes many gyms would place at higher levels. I like some of Catlady's ideas in this regard...

 

[Cheerhastakenovermylife]

I hear a lot about "True level 2 athletes" what is a "true level 2 athletes"? Cause I see lots of gyms with level 2s not maxing out the score sheet in tumbling & stunting. If everyone wasn't in such a hurry to see their athlete move up a level every year they'd have time to develop the max skills. You wouldn't be concerned with sandbagging teams if your team was maxed out cause it would be an equal playing field. Skills are skills no matter how advanced an athlete is they can only perform the skills eligible for that level. If your child is on a level 2 cause they got a back handspring but can't do a walk over back handspring are they still a "true level 2 athlete"? We've lost to teams that were stacked but they deserve to win not a team that's not maxing out the score sheet. A lot of Sports use strategy to win. If your athletes are going out there and performing a zero routine and losing that's on the coaches for not providing their athletes with the tools to win. Not the other teams for being better.

 

[cheer25mom]

IMO A true level 2 athlete is a kid with all of their level 2 skills with the quality necessary to perform them on the mat, Who does not yet have all of her level Three skills mat ready.


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[Cheerhastakenovermylife]

IMO A true level 2 athlete is a kid with all of their level 2 skills with the quality necessary to perform them on the mat, Who does not yet have all of her level Three skills mat ready.


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This I agree with wholeheartedly. Yet I don't believe most coaches, athletes and parents abide by this.

 

[cheer25mom]

I hear a lot about "True level 2 athletes" what is a "true level 2 athletes"? Cause I see lots of gyms with level 2s not maxing out the score sheet in tumbling & stunting. If everyone wasn't in such a hurry to see their athlete move up a level every year they'd have time to develop the max skills. You wouldn't be concerned with sandbagging teams if your team was maxed out cause it would be an equal playing field. Skills are skills no matter how advanced an athlete is they can only perform the skills eligible for that level. If your child is on a level 2 cause they got a back handspring but can't do a walk over back handspring are they still a "true level 2 athlete"? We've lost to teams that were stacked but they deserve to win not a team that's not maxing out the score sheet. A lot of Sports use strategy to win. If your athletes are going out there and performing a zero routine and losing that's on the coaches for not providing their athletes with the tools to win. Not the other teams for being better.

I don't totally agree with this as far as sandbagging though. A true level 2 athlete won't have the same quality of execution as a level 4 or 5 athlete. That goes for stunts an tumbling. A flyer that can confidently do a double up should have no problem cleanly executing a half up every time and making it look easy. He tick tocks will be 100% clean all the time at prep without much effort. That effort can be spent elsewhere. A kid with a full will have a much better roundoff 2 than a kid who cannot do a tuck yet. It definitely makes a difference in what the coach is able to put on the mat from day 1 and how much energy has to be spent cleaning.

 

[Cheerhastakenovermylife]

That may be true but I think there are more teams with under-skilled athletes then over-skilled athletes. It's the under-skilled teams that complain the most IMO.

 

[cheer25mom]

That may be true but I think there are more teams with under-skilled athletes then over-skilled athletes. It's the under-skilled teams that complain the most IMO.

I think that any level 2 team made up of level appropriate athletes (or even some who should still be level 1) that has to compete against a team where many are level 4 and 5 athletes has a legitimate reason to complain. I don't think its a fair playing field. Should they be fielding athletes without all the their level 2 skills, probably not but I do not think that negates the fact that sandbagging is a problem.

 

[123jump4!]

I hear a lot about "True level 2 athletes" what is a "true level 2 athletes"? Cause I see lots of gyms with level 2s not maxing out the score sheet in tumbling & stunting. If everyone wasn't in such a hurry to see their athlete move up a level every year they'd have time to develop the max skills. You wouldn't be concerned with sandbagging teams if your team was maxed out cause it would be an equal playing field. Skills are skills no matter how advanced an athlete is they can only perform the skills eligible for that level. If your child is on a level 2 cause they got a back handspring but can't do a walk over back handspring are they still a "true level 2 athlete"? We've lost to teams that were stacked but they deserve to win not a team that's not maxing out the score sheet. A lot of Sports use strategy to win. If your athletes are going out there and performing a zero routine and losing that's on the coaches for not providing their athletes with the tools to win. Not the other teams for being better.

In theory a true level 2 team should be able to do as well as a level 2 team full of higher level athletes. But as @cheer25mom says, in reality higher level athletes have an advantage from having more experience in cheer in general. They are just going to look sharper and cleaner in most of what they do.

It's like if a 5th grader took a spelling test in 2nd grade. They would probably finish first with 100% correct, even if the 2nd graders should know all the words too.

 

[catlady]

I hear a lot about "True level 2 athletes" what is a "true level 2 athletes"? Cause I see lots of gyms with level 2s not maxing out the score sheet in tumbling & stunting. If everyone wasn't in such a hurry to see their athlete move up a level every year they'd have time to develop the max skills. You wouldn't be concerned with sandbagging teams if your team was maxed out cause it would be an equal playing field. Skills are skills no matter how advanced an athlete is they can only perform the skills eligible for that level. If your child is on a level 2 cause they got a back handspring but can't do a walk over back handspring are they still a "true level 2 athlete"? We've lost to teams that were stacked but they deserve to win not a team that's not maxing out the score sheet. A lot of Sports use strategy to win. If your athletes are going out there and performing a zero routine and losing that's on the coaches for not providing their athletes with the tools to win. Not the other teams for being better.

I do believe the pendulum is swinging in this direction and has been for the past few years. Gyms/parents/athletes that don't adopt this line of thinking will be left behind. I, also, agree that most teams are under skilled versus truly sandbagging.

HOWEVER, there are still too many competitions that allow gyms too many crossovers on too many levels. Give a new level 2 stunt group, with all the all in level 2 tumbling, an elite level 2 stunt to learn. Then, give it to a level 5 stunt group. The level 5 group will have it down in 10 minutes and they'll give you all the performance to go with it. Meanwhile, 3 months later, the level 2 group is just starting to develop the muscle, control, and ability to read the stunt and now able to hit the majority of the time. It's like having a ten month old and a 5 year old in a walking contest and expecting the same results because they both can walk.

 

[Cheer_Up_Everyone]

It's like if a 5th grader took a spelling test in 2nd grade. They would probably finish first with 100% correct, even if the 2nd graders should know all the words too.

I absolootly agree with this. But seriously, I see both sides. There's a local gym near us with well over 100 athletes and probably 80% crossover with some triple teaming. One or two are on J5 but also J2. They couldn't pluck a kid from J3 or J4 for the J2 team?!? Seriously??

 

[Lovemyoagirl]

I think that any level 2 team made up of level appropriate athletes (or even some who should still be level 1) that has to compete against a team where many are level 4 and 5 athletes has a legitimate reason to complain. I don't think its a fair playing field. Should they be fielding athletes without all the their level 2 skills, probably not but I do not think that negates the fact that sandbagging is a problem.

100%

 

[omgitssydthekid]

I hear a lot about "True level 2 athletes" what is a "true level 2 athletes"? Cause I see lots of gyms with level 2s not maxing out the score sheet in tumbling & stunting. If everyone wasn't in such a hurry to see their athlete move up a level every year they'd have time to develop the max skills. You wouldn't be concerned with sandbagging teams if your team was maxed out cause it would be an equal playing field. Skills are skills no matter how advanced an athlete is they can only perform the skills eligible for that level. If your child is on a level 2 cause they got a back handspring but can't do a walk over back handspring are they still a "true level 2 athlete"? We've lost to teams that were stacked but they deserve to win not a team that's not maxing out the score sheet. A lot of Sports use strategy to win. If your athletes are going out there and performing a zero routine and losing that's on the coaches for not providing their athletes with the tools to win. Not the other teams for being better.

This is fair.

But what about level 1 teams? Is there not a spot for beginners anymore? Where do the athletes that have never cheered before go? A prep team? But what if there isn't a prep team for them?

Level 1 is SO heavily sandbagged. I compete with another gym that has a junior level 1 ALL the time. In fact, I have coached a good number of the athletes on that team. They left our gym because they didn't like their tryout placement, and this gym said they would put them on a level 2. And they did, but they also put them on a level 1. Along with other athletes that I have personally coached, and I KNOW they have tucks and layouts.

My athletes are genuine level 1 athletes. Out of 13 of them, 7 of them had cheered before. These kids have had to compete against that team, and other like them, ALL season. And it sucks to compete against them and it sucks to lose to them, but MAN it sure feels good to win against them.

I don't fault them for what they're doing, it's not illegal. But I do consider it to be unethical.

"Stacking" is what you're talking about, "sandbagging" is totally different.


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[123jump4!]

This is fair.

But what about level 1 teams? Is there not a spot for beginners anymore? Where do the athletes that have never cheered before go? A prep team? But what if there isn't a prep team for them?

Level 1 is SO heavily sandbagged. I compete with another gym that has a junior level 1 ALL the time. In fact, I have coached a good number of the athletes on that team. They left our gym because they didn't like their tryout placement, and this gym said they would put them on a level 2. And they did, but they also put them on a level 1. Along with other athletes that I have personally coached, and I KNOW they have tucks and layouts.

My athletes are genuine level 1 athletes. Out of 13 of them, 7 of them had cheered before. These kids have had to compete against that team, and other like them, ALL season. And it sucks to compete against them and it sucks to lose to them, but MAN it sure feels good to win against them.

I don't fault them for what they're doing, it's not illegal. But I do consider it to be unethical.

"Stacking" is what you're talking about, "sandbagging" is totally different.

Totally agree with you that sandbagging is unfair.

Now you're also starting a different discussion, is level 1 for beginners? When we first started cheer my then 6 yo was told she was welcome to join a team, I assumed it was because they thought she had good skills. (She had a killer cartwheel lol but not even a backbend.) Like in gymnastics, you're only asked to join the comp team if you have the right skills... Anyway, she ended up nuggeting A LOT. If I had known what I know now, I might have just had her do tumbling that season. She had some fun too though... :)

It's tough with level 1. There is a long way between a beginner and a veteran level 1 athlete. I wonder if any (maybe bigger) gyms turn away kids with no skills from level 1 teams and tell them to do a tumbling class first, or put them on prep if they have it?

 

[omgitssydthekid]

Totally agree with you that sandbagging is unfair.

Now you're also starting a different discussion, is level 1 for beginners? When we first started cheer my then 6 yo was told she was welcome to join a team, I assumed it was because they thought she had good skills. (She had a killer cartwheel lol but not even a backbend.) Like in gymnastics, you're only asked to join the comp team if you have the right skills... anyway, she ended up nuggeting A LOT. If I had known what I know now, I might have just had her do tumbling that season. She had some fun too though...

It's tough with level 1. There is a long way between a beginner and a veteran level 1 athlete. I wonder if any (maybe bigger) gyms turn away kids with no skills from level 1 teams and tell them to do a tumbling class first, or put them on prep if they have it?

Definitely! It was a genuine question. I'm honestly not sure if there is a spot for true beginners anymore. I can see a huge difference between my 3 year level 1 vet and one of my brand new kiddos. Some of them pick up extremely fast, they are just natural athletes. However, that isn't every kid.


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