All-Star October Update To Varsity Scoring System

[ASCheerMan]

For L2 -- I need clarification in reading the grid. Do barrel rolls count as tosses -- as to the full team plus three rule?
So would full team tosses plus full team Barrel rolls max in the toss area?

It may max out your subrange (HIGH = 3.7 - 4.0), although I don't know if it would max out your score.

 

[CoachTamara]

LOL You are FAST, Steven.

He stalks you.

In other news, we have been discussing in the Coaches Forum and now I'm really curious. Does the dismount from a pyramid count towards a pyramid transition or a stunt skill? For example, let's say I have a level 3 pyramid with full downs at the end of it. Do those count as one of my three pyramid skills to get in the high range, or does it count as an intermediate building skill for my stunt score?

 

[ASCheerMan]

He stalks you.

In other news, we have been discussing in the Coaches Forum and now I'm really curious. Does the dismount from a pyramid count towards a pyramid transition or a stunt skill? For example, let's say I have a level 3 pyramid with full downs at the end of it. Do those count as one of my three pyramid skills to get in the high range, or does it count as an intermediate building skill for my stunt score?

I would have to say it counts towards the stunt dismount. The Pyramid score is focusing on structures and transitions between structures.

 

[Ja-Mez]

Is that Tribe Senior Level 1 from 2008 that ended up tieing Spirit Celebration the year before. I do cardio to that music everyday. LOL

Hahaha!! Nice, I actually forgot about that one. I was at CA that season

 

[in10sityNY]

So if I'm reading this right-
In level 1 a fwo cartwheel bwo step out fwo fwd roll cartwheel bwo counts for 7
Does each back handspring in level 2 count?
Do Only tucks count in 3? So there is no legal pass with more than 1 skill?

Am I wrong to assume that it meant level appropriate skills within a pass?

The only thing I can think of for level 3 would be punch front fw roll r/o bhs tuck. That would be 2 skills.

 

[CGAcheer]

The only thing I can think of for level 3 would be punch front fw roll r/o bhs tuck. That would be 2 skills.

but those already have to be separated to be legal

 

[in10sityNY]

but those already have to be separated to be legal

Right. A couple of my girls do that in their pass though. They do punch front fw roll, step step r/o bhs tuck. So that would be 2 but you are right that there really isn't anything else in level 3 that could be considered as more than one.

Rather than having to do squad r/o bhs tucks and then the running tumbling section, if you did squad punch fronts somewhere in the routine in addition to your running tumbling section, that should fulfill the requirement because a punch front is technically running tumbling. I think that may be the direction our level 3 team is going in to fulfill the requirement.

 

[CGAcheer]

D

Scoring Interpretation Update:
In an effort to lessen the stress and demands on athletes, judges will be counting skills within the running tumbling pass--instead of just the entire pass--when assessing your Difficulty subrange in L1-L4 (i.e. a whip through to layout now counts as 2 skills instead of 1).

Does each handspring in level 2 count towards this?

 

[drewpate]

Scoring Interpretation Update:
In an effort to lessen the stress and demands on athletes, judges will be counting skills within the running tumbling pass--instead of just the entire pass--when assessing your Difficulty subrange in L1-L4 (i.e. a whip through to layout now counts as 2 skills instead of 1).

I love this for levels 3-4, due to the higher demands of tumbling at the higher levels, however for 1-2 I feel it will unbalance the scoresheet even more towards stunting at these levels. I know it would complicate things more, but right now, squad (or 75 %) roff two gets you into the highest range. Now I know that highest range isn't maxing out, but there isn't near as much opportunity to separate yourself in tumbling as there is in stunts. Honestly, even in stunts there isn't much room in levels 1-2 (especially one) to seperate yourself. When was the last time you saw a level 1 team (mini or up) that didn't have 4-5 stunt transitions. There are so many level appropriate things (since everything is level appropriate in 1 lol) that especially at major competitions, there will be tons of teams all scoring into a very narrow range. Now I'm the first one to jump on here and say techniques wide open 1 point range is where to seperate yourself, but at the very top tier of level 1 and two teams, I just feel like scores are gonna be a lot closer than they need to be, if that makes sense

 

[xpressjag]

Justin when is your Nca webinar?

 

[ASCheerMan]

I love this for levels 3-4, due to the higher demands of tumbling at the higher levels, however for 1-2 I feel it will unbalance the scoresheet even more towards stunting at these levels. I know it would complicate things more, but right now, squad (or 75 %) roff two gets you into the highest range. Now I know that highest range isn't maxing out, but there isn't near as much opportunity to separate yourself in tumbling as there is in stunts. Honestly, even in stunts there isn't much room in levels 1-2 (especially one) to seperate yourself. When was the last time you saw a level 1 team (mini or up) that didn't have 4-5 stunt transitions. There are so many level appropriate things (since everything is level appropriate in 1 lol) that especially at major competitions, there will be tons of teams all scoring into a very narrow range. Now I'm the first one to jump on here and say techniques wide open 1 point range is where to seperate yourself, but at the very top tier of level 1 and two teams, I just feel like scores are gonna be a lot closer than they need to be, if that makes sense

I agree COMPLETELY. That is the inherent issue when we decided to respond to the coaches' request and post what is needed to score high.
- We can't define the HIGH categories with too many skills, because everyone complains we're making it too difficult to choreograph routines and fit everything in.
- We can't make the HIGH range any wider (like last season when it was a full point) because everyone wants clearer direction on what scores HIGH within the range--which is why we made the change in the first place.

 

[drewpate]

I agree COMPLETELY. That is the inherent issue when we decided to respond to the coaches' request and post what is needed to score high.
- We can't define the HIGH categories with too many skills, because everyone complains we're making it too difficult to choreograph routines and fit everything in.
- We can't make the HIGH range any wider (like last season when it was a full point) because everyone wants clearer direction on what scores HIGH within the range--which is why we made the change in the first place.

I see your points, it's definitely a case of you get what ask for. While I can't offer a specific solution other than make the ranges wider (which brings us back to the original problem the grid solved) what I ultimately would like to see is us having enough qualified judges to utilize a scoresheet and philosophy more similar to the worlds (ie gridless and being scored directly against what the other teams in your division do) I just don't see that as feasible with the size of our industry and the size of the 3 major nationals.

The grid lowers the difficulty of judging therefore there are more judges capable of doing a good job, and to accurately get the general placements right more often than not, and I completely understand that. I think the most fair way would be a points system (with caps so I can't have a level 2 team do 30 standing bhs a piece and ignore the rest of the routine because I get 1800 points on difficulty in standing tumbling) and someone whose job it is to review routines and assign the difficulty score. Then have separate panel judges who score the execution and abstract parts of the routine.

However, I see the much bigger costs both in tech, labor, and time required to score (and I'm sure you've heard many times how much we love competitions that run on schedule lol) I definitely don't envy your job of trying to please your customers while maintaining the integrity of the competition. Speaking as a coach for a second and not an event producer, what would your personal dream scoresheet look like? Also, when Varsity is working on scoresheets and similar issues (I'm sure that's a pretty constant process), do you have focus groups or something similar with coaches that you work with to help bounce ideas and get suggestions? If so how would one get involved in that?


Ps to any admin that reads this (I get an error when trying to tag Justin in this) it says I don't have permission to tag people in messages?

 

[ASCheerMan]

So if I'm reading this right-
In level 1 a fwo cartwheel bwo step out fwo fwd roll cartwheel bwo counts for 7
Does each back handspring in level 2 count?
Do Only tucks count in 3? So there is no legal pass with more than 1 skill?

Am I wrong to assume that it meant level appropriate skills within a pass?

That is correct and your assessment is correct. Sorry I skipped your message when responding.

 

[ASCheerMan]

D
Does each handspring in level 2 count towards this?

Yes

 

[ASCheerMan]

I see your points, it's definitely a case of you get what ask for. While I can't offer a specific solution other than make the ranges wider (which brings us back to the original problem the grid solved) what I ultimately would like to see is us having enough qualified judges to utilize a scoresheet and philosophy more similar to the worlds (ie gridless and being scored directly against what the other teams in your division do) I just don't see that as feasible with the size of our industry and the size of the 3 major nationals.

The Worlds Scoresheet would be the easiest to implement, but the Coaches would never have it. There seems to be a lot of frustration on the vagueness of the score sheet. I applaud Les for resisting pressure to become more specific, but at this point--the worlds score sheet resembles nothing like what teams are using all season long. I don't think that's the answer.

The grid lowers the difficulty of judging therefore there are more judges capable of doing a good job, and to accurately get the general placements right more often than not, and I completely understand that. I think the most fair way would be a points system (with caps so I can't have a level 2 team do 30 standing bhs a piece and ignore the rest of the routine because I get 1800 points on difficulty in standing tumbling) and someone whose job it is to review routines and assign the difficulty score. Then have separate panel judges who score the execution and abstract parts of the routine.

However, I see the much bigger costs both in tech, labor, and time required to score (and I'm sure you've heard many times how much we love competitions that run on schedule lol) I definitely don't envy your job of trying to please your customers while maintaining the integrity of the competition. Speaking as a coach for a second and not an event producer, what would your personal dream scoresheet look like? Also, when Varsity is working on scoresheets and similar issues (I'm sure that's a pretty constant process), do you have focus groups or something similar with coaches that you work with to help bounce ideas and get suggestions? If so how would one get involved in that?

I don't think we are too far off track but I think there needs to be re-evaluation.As an Event Producer, I'd like to go BACK to one point ranges, with no Low, Medium, or High subranges while implementing very strict caps. I think having caps lessens the need for tighter ranges.

If you've tried scoring on the new system yet, its not easy. And you spend so much time counting elite transitions, or counting the back handsprings in the running tumbling, you aren't left a lot of opportunity to give your opinion on the actual skills. I would suggest the judges don't get to enjoy the great routines that coaches are putting so much care and thought into.

Aside from my discussions with coaches at every event last year and the conversations our Scoring Committee has with their customers, I did conduct two focus groups leading into this year's system. I usually select coaches that I can tell have an understanding of cheer, an understanding of MATH, and an open mind to the opposing opinion.

If you don't mind me asking, who is this? 99% of the time, I don't even know who I'm chatting with on here--and the ? doesn't ring a bell :)


Ps to any admin that reads this (I get an error when trying to tag Justin in this) it says I don't have permission to tag people in messages?[/quote]