All-Star October Update To Varsity Scoring System

[Hungry]

D
Does each handspring in level 2 count towards this?

Yes

ASCheerMan I just want to clarify this question/answer above.

If a level 2 running pass is a round off triple backhandspring, you're saying that counts as three passes?

 

[CHEERCOACH G]

Hungry, KTonner2244, CoachTamara, I'm tagging you since we had a discussion that included Runnting Tumbling. Please see the recent update to the interpretation of Running Tumbling. Tell your friends and have them tell their friends.

And KTonner2244, Jesus is not happy you texted me during Church on Sunday.

Soooooo Sorry Justin!!! Thank you for replying!! Now that i know you go to church, I will NEVER do that again:) Appreciate everything you do!

 

[Ashley]

Are there stunts that an all-girl level 6 team could do to get into the "collegiate" range? All of the stunts listed are unassisted coed stunts.

 

[ASCheerMan]

Are there stunts that an all-girl level 6 team could do to get into the "collegiate" range? All of the stunts listed are unassisted coed stunts.

It's impossible for a Level 6 team to qualify for the 9-10 range without having at least one unassisted sequence.

 

[ASCheerMan]

ASCheerMan I just want to clarify this question/answer above.

If a level 2 running pass is a round off triple backhandspring, you're saying that counts as three passes?

It counts as 3 skills, making it very easy for your Level 2 team to compete the HIGH qualification.

 

[drewpate]

The Worlds Scoresheet would be the easiest to implement, but the Coaches would never have it. There seems to be a lot of frustration on the vagueness of the score sheet. I applaud Les for resisting pressure to become more specific, but at this point--the worlds score sheet resembles nothing like what teams are using all season long. I don't think that's the answer.


I don't think we are too far off track but I think there needs to be re-evaluation.As an Event Producer, I'd like to go BACK to one point ranges, with no Low, Medium, or High subranges while implementing very strict caps. I think having caps lessens the need for tighter ranges.

If you've tried scoring on the new system yet, its not easy. And you spend so much time counting elite transitions, or counting the back handsprings in the running tumbling, you aren't left a lot of opportunity to give your opinion on the actual skills. I would suggest the judges don't get to enjoy the great routines that coaches are putting so much care and thought into.

Aside from my discussions with coaches at every event last year and the conversations our Scoring Committee has with their customers, I did conduct two focus groups leading into this year's system. I usually select coaches that I can tell have an understanding of cheer, an understanding of MATH, and an open mind to the opposing opinion.

If you don't mind me asking, who is this? 99% of the time, I don't even know who I'm chatting with on here--and the ? doesn't ring a bell :)


Ps to any admin that reads this (I get an error when trying to tag Justin in this) it says I don't have permission to tag people in messages?

[/quote]


I'm drew from cheer force in arkansas. We've met a couple of times at the USASF regional in Dallas. You might know two of the people I coach with, Laura Tucker and Sarah Marsh who are on the special needs committee. (They call you my twin lol)

I do know that 99% of coaches would never accept the worlds scoresheet, and that the USASF is in a unique position (as long as they get the results right on a pretty consistent basis they are going to keep their customers for worlds. No one is not going to go to worlds because they don't like the scoresheet)

I also know that the counting skills does take away from the judges enjoying the routine (one gripe I have with Jammy sense that scoresheet is very numbers driven), I think the simplest solution for now would have a seperate judge to score difficulty only.
At first I was against caps, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. There would have to be a balance in the caps that make room for teams to excel over the competition in certain areas (basically a high enough # in each category that you couldn't max every area of the scoresheet). It would really force you to pick and choose.
For what it's worth, I've only had one issue with the last scoresheet, and it was at a local NCA, and I really blame it on poor use of the scoresheet by a particular judge (hardly any seperation of scores even on categories where the skill difference was huge). Had they been scored on the current scoresheet, it would have been a lot easier for me to prove the inconsistency in judging, so it does have its uses. I think for levels 3-6 this scoresheet won't stifle creativity too much (I do see pyramids being a bit stale if coaches just look at the #s), but for levels 1-2 I think it just highly unbalances the scoring. (At the top tier of levels 3-5 I'd wager that all the scores were in the top range for nearly all categories)

Thanks for the conversation by the way, it's rare that I get to have such an intellectual discussion about something like this.

 

[12stepCheermom]

Thanks for the conversation by the way, it's rare that I get to have such an intellectual discussion about something like this.

And rare that parents like me who are interested in the analysis of the sport get to hear such a discussion :) so thanks from me too!

 

[Hungry]

I just want to clarify this question/answer above.

If a level 2 running pass is a round off triple backhandspring, you're saying that counts as three passes?

It counts as 3 skills, making it very easy for your Level 2 team to compete the HIGH qualification.

I'm so sorry to be redundant! I'm just super confused. The score sheet says: "High: Most of the athletes participate in 2 level appropriate skills. Level 2 Appropriate Skills include: Round off BHS, round off BHS series, front walkover round off BHS"

The way I read it is that a round off bhs series counts as one skill but you are saying it actually counts as multiple skills if a series bhs is thrown?

If I have 15 athletes all throw a round off double bhs, that equals 30 level appropriate skills and puts me in the high range?

Thank you again for taking the time to answer all these questions from all of us! It really is appreciated and I apologize again for having to ask for clarification AGAIN! :confused:

 

[ASCheerMan]

drewpate,
I have a twin, so this makes you our triplet.

The beauty of caps is that it would free up teams to be creative again. We wouldn't say 'YOU ARE DONE STUNTING.' We'd just be saying 'there's no need to do more than 3 elite transitions.' Technique still gets scored and so does creativity. So teams that are used to incoporating 4 can now spend that time doing a fun, visual, creative stunt that they wouldn't have dared to waste their time on before. I believe its the way to go.

Your NCA Arkansas story is interesting. I would venture to say that most issues people have with scoring are hardly ever about the system itself and more often than not with the way a judge APPLIED the system.

We almost went down the road of a sepearate DIFFICULTY panel and TECHNIQUE panel. For logistic reasons, we abandoned it but I also think that's the best way to go. Too often, good or bad technique influences Difficulty Score and vice versa. It has a lot of merit.

Feel free to email me if you ever need anything. I try to stay off the boards except when making announcements or when attempting to stabilize the environment when it looks like there is a revolution on the horizon. :)

 

[ASCheerMan]

I'm so sorry to be redundant! I'm just super confused. The score sheet says: "High: Most of the athletes participate in 2 level appropriate skills. Level 2 Appropriate Skills include: Round off BHS, round off BHS series, front walkover round off BHS"

The way I read it is that a round off bhs series counts as one skill but you are saying it actually counts as multiple skills if a series bhs is thrown?

If I have 15 athletes all throw a round off double bhs, that equals 30 level appropriate skills and puts me in the high range?

Thank you again for taking the time to answer all these questions from all of us! It really is appreciated and I apologize again for having to ask for clarification AGAIN! :confused:

You are correct. Maybe we need to spell it out more, but round off back handspring series IS an example of Level 2 Appropriate Skills. You will qualify for the HIGH range with the example you used on a team of 20 :)

 

[5-6-7-8]

And rare that parents like me who are interested in the analysis of the sport get to hear such a discussion :) so thanks from me too!

Agreed! I was just thinking how lucky we are to hear this!!

 

[in10sityNY]

It's impossible for a Level 6 team to qualify for the 9-10 range without having at least one unassisted sequence.

I don't want to start any arguments but I just want clarification. This in essence allows coed 6 teams to outscore allgirl teams almost everytime. For those bid competitions, I feel like our All-Girl 6 team will be at a severe disadvantage for obtaining a bid versus the Coed Level 6 teams. How can you assure me that this will not happen?

Also, rewinds to a sponge or to a prep are not listed on the skills sheet and neither are front or back flipping dismounts. A rewind to extended position is Elite so I assume a rewind to prep or sponge would be Advanced. So, should I just not bother doing them? I feel as if doing a complete level 5 elite sequence would score me higher and that these level 6 skills are not being rewarded enough. Could you shed some light on this?

 

[Ashley]

I don't want to start any arguments but I just want clarification. This in essence allows coed 6 teams to outscore allgirl teams almost everytime. For those bid competitions, I feel like our All-Girl 6 team will be at a severe disadvantage for obtaining a bid versus the Coed Level 6 teams. How can you assure me that this will not happen?

Also, rewinds to a sponge or to a prep are not listed on the skills sheet and neither are front or back flipping dismounts. A rewind to extended position is Elite so I assume a rewind to prep or sponge would be Advanced. So, should I just not bother doing them? I feel as if doing a complete level 5 elite sequence would score me higher and that these level 6 skills are not being rewarded enough. Could you shed some light on this?

Realistically, a rewind to sponge is a lot easier than most of those level 5 skills, so I get why they did the way they did. But it still doesn't seem very fair, especially when a lot of competitions use percentage of perfection to determine bids, and, unless you're Cheyenne from OSU/T&S, no all-girl team is going to have much of a shot of getting in that upper range.

 

[ASCheerMan]

I don't want to start any arguments but I just want clarification. This in essence allows coed 6 teams to outscore allgirl teams almost everytime. For those bid competitions, I feel like our All-Girl 6 team will be at a severe disadvantage for obtaining a bid versus the Coed Level 6 teams. How can you assure me that this will not happen?

Also, rewinds to a sponge or to a prep are not listed on the skills sheet and neither are front or back flipping dismounts. A rewind to extended position is Elite so I assume a rewind to prep or sponge would be Advanced. So, should I just not bother doing them? I feel as if doing a complete level 5 elite sequence would score me higher and that these level 6 skills are not being rewarded enough. Could you shed some light on this?

You are correct in that all-girl unassisted rewinds are not rewarded here. Probably worth revisiting.

I can't speak for any brand other than NCA, but we are converting L6 scores to 100% when considering World Bids. L6 All Girl Total Possible will be out of 102, while coed is 103. This will level the playing field, addressing most of you r concern.

L6 teams will also be excited to know we aren't just designating 2 bids for L6 as we normally have. Once converted to 100 scale, L6 teams are eligible for all 24 At-Large bids.

 

[Ashley]

You are correct in that all-girl unassisted rewinds are not rewarded here. Probably worth revisiting.

I can't speak for any brand other than NCA, but we are converting L6 scores to 100% when considering World Bids. L6 All Girl Total Possible will be out of 102, while coed is 103. This will level the playing field, addressing most of you r concern.

L6 teams will also be excited to know we aren't just designating 2 bids for L6 as we normally have. Once converted to 100 scale, L6 teams are eligible for all 24 At-Large bids.

So if you are Cheyenne, it's like getting bonus points! Better perfect that rewind!