All-Star Punishments/sanctions

[imrichhowboutu]

I was talking to some people this past week about breaking the rules, and everyone seems to have a different idea of what an appropriate punishment is for breaking them.

What do you think is an appropriate punishment for the gym, team, coaches, athletes in these situations:

• Using an illegal (over/under age) athlete to obtain a bid
• Using an illegal (over/under age) athlete to compete at worlds
• Using an illegal substitution (already used max # or didn't have release) at worlds
• Using a crossover at worlds (cheer/cheer or dance/cheer)

• Breaking ethics rules (recruiting at a competition, code of conduct, etc)
• Substance abuse while competing
• Substance abuse while coaching
• Coaches disregard for General Safety rules (appropriate surfaces, skill progressions)

 

[dawgshow]

I was talking to some people this past week about breaking the rules, and everyone seems to have a different idea of what an appropriate punishment is for breaking them.

What do you think is an appropriate punishment for the gym, team, coaches, athletes in these situations:

• Using an illegal (over/under age) athlete to obtain a bid loss of bid and ineligibility to try for another one
• Using an illegal (over/under age) athlete to compete at worlds loss of placement and ineligible to compete the next season (for the entire gym!)
• Using an illegal substitution (already used max # or didn't have release) at worlds loss of placement at worlds
• Using a crossover at worlds (cheer/cheer or dance/cheer) loss of placement

• Breaking ethics rules (recruiting at a competition, code of conduct, etc) unsure. I think it depends on the rule broken
• Substance abuse while competing Kicked off of team and legal consequences
• Substance abuse while coaching Loss of job and legal consequences
• Coaches disregard for General Safety rules (appropriate surfaces, skill progressions) retraining on safety rules and if it continues, loss of job

I assumed in my answers that the world's teams have already competed and placed.

 

[Mo-Lissa]

imrichhowboutu
Great Question, but like in real life people with money and power sometimes end up above the "law/rules" Everyone knows the rules, reads the rules, but some choose not to follow the rules. Also people overlook the rule breakers, because as with everything else you become a snitch. I feel if you break the rules, obtain a bid, or competing illegally you should be banned from Worlds period because we don't need these kind of people representing our industry, but that will never fly. People will be reprimanded behind closed doors. If you call people out these days the blame goes to the people reporting to PROVE the wrong doing, along the way you will be blamed for slander among other things. This unfortunately is a no win situation. I guess the guilty will someday have to answer to a higher power. I also hate what it teaches these athletes, that cheating or fudging the rules is okay.

 

[5-6-7-8]

I like what dawgshow posted for consequences.

I think it needs to be harsh and public enough that it becomes a deterrent from breaking the rules.

However, I think the groundwork needs to be put in place that some of these rules can be verified and backed with objective information (e.g. a robust athlete registration and verification system that can identify illegal athletes, over/under aged athletes, crossovers, gym releases and not relevant to Worlds "sandbaggers.") As it is now, first someone needs to have the guts to challenge another gym, and then there needs to be absolute proof to be able to punish. Currently so much gray area that I assume most gyms don't get punished.

 

[Cheerfan1234]

I wonder what prompted this thread? Would the author of it like to stir the pot a bit more and explain?

 

[NEliteSteven]

I wonder what prompted this thread? Would the author of it like to stir the pot a bit more and explain?

I wouldn't say he is stirring the pot. I feel like there are legitimate causes prompting this thread. imrichhowboutu Care to elaborate?

 

[imrichhowboutu]

I stated exactly why I started this thread. I had a conversation with several people with differencing opinions and wanted to expand on it.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

 

[kristenthegreat]

Well, summer is usually the time we discuss this sort of thing anyway..

I agree with others- I DO think there should be hard sanctions that discourage this sort of thing from happening. The problem is, without a huge system of checks/balances and all sorts of data, you run the risk of punishing innocent people and driving them away from the sport. Yes, knowingly using an illegal athlete should be punished, but you have to prove they KNOW it in the first place. Say someone forges a birth certificate. We currently don't have a system in place that monitors ACTUAL birth certificates/ages, as opposed to the ones a potential athlete gives a gym. People lie. Do you punish the other 19/31/35 kids for that? They had no idea. If a gym has never done this before, it wouldn't show up when you googled a gym, as opposed to some of the other shady ones who pop up when you search. Therefore saying 'Oh well, you should have known' is useless and leaves people terrified of committing to a gym.

Also- what's to stop the athlete who knowingly cheated from hopping to another gym next year? The gym/innocent athletes get DOUBLY screwed (they lose their title and worlds privilege), and the athlete gets to go to worlds elsewhere? Facebook isn't always reliable for checking ages- it's easy to create an entire world for yourself online. Unless the athlete is INCREDIBLY well-known, who's going to know? Can you imagine Cheer Athletics, World Cup, TG or other multi-Worlds team gyms losing Worlds privileges for the WHOLE GYM because of ONE athlete?

 

[dawgshow]

Well, summer is usually the time we discuss this sort of thing anyway..

Can you imagine Cheer Athletics, World Cup, TG or other multi-Worlds team gyms losing Worlds privileges for the WHOLE GYM because of ONE athlete?

It would only happen once, I guarantee you. When my son played football he had to submit a notarized copy of his birth certificate in order to play. Every player did. I don't see an issue with gyms having those on file each season. Could one be faked? Sure but it's a lot harder than just a photocopy.

 

[kristenthegreat]

It would only happen once, I guarantee you. When my son played football he had to submit a notarized copy of his birth certificate in order to play. Every player did. I don't see an issue with gyms having those on file each season. Could one be faked? Sure but it's a lot harder than just a photocopy.

True. I would just hope that we balance increasing the punishment with having the data to back it up. I'm sure you felt safer about joining that team and spending that money knowing it would be incredibly difficult for you to be unfairly punished for someone cheating..cheer is HOW much more expensive? Can you imagine the chaos if we didn't have the balance checks in?

 

[kyyyyyyxo]

It would only happen once, I guarantee you. When my son played football he had to submit a notarized copy of his birth certificate in order to play. Every player did. I don't see an issue with gyms having those on file each season. Could one be faked? Sure but it's a lot harder than just a photocopy.

For years I have been saying none of this would be a problem if all kids had to register with USASF each year (like USA hockey) in order to be on a team, who also keeps all the stats on the team and kids. And then each kid could get a card like my student Id, name, picture, you could add team, age, division, scanner on the back could be swiped at a computer if there are questions. At a school of 25,000 students, its free for your first card, $5 to replace it if you loose it; there are more cheerleaders than that so it wouldn't be that expensive to do.

In reality, somewhere along the line a kid could fake it, but if they have to register every year in a computer system, at some point it wouldn't add up, and when that happens, the kid should be done with cheering.

 

[12stepCheermom]

Well, summer is usually the time we discuss this sort of thing anyway..

I agree with others- I DO think there should be hard sanctions that discourage this sort of thing from happening. The problem is, without a huge system of checks/balances and all sorts of data, you run the risk of punishing innocent people and driving them away from the sport. Yes, knowingly using an illegal athlete should be punished, but you have to prove they KNOW it in the first place. Say someone forges a birth certificate. We currently don't have a system in place that monitors ACTUAL birth certificates/ages, as opposed to the ones a potential athlete gives a gym. People lie. Do you punish the other 19/31/35 kids for that? They had no idea. If a gym has never done this before, it wouldn't show up when you googled a gym, as opposed to some of the other shady ones who pop up when you search. Therefore saying 'Oh well, you should have known' is useless and leaves people terrified of committing to a gym.

Also- what's to stop the athlete who knowingly cheated from hopping to another gym next year? The gym/innocent athletes get DOUBLY screwed (they lose their title and worlds privilege), and the athlete gets to go to worlds elsewhere? Facebook isn't always reliable for checking ages- it's easy to create an entire world for yourself online. Unless the athlete is INCREDIBLY well-known, who's going to know? Can you imagine Cheer Athletics, World Cup, TG or other multi-Worlds team gyms losing Worlds privileges for the WHOLE GYM because of ONE athlete?

If we want to be a sport, we need to play like one. High school and college teams forfeit entire seasons and face sanctions because of one athlete (and trust me, they lie too about residency, ages, grades etc)...look at what happened with Penn State due to one coach. Past present and future PSU athletes are paying for that and it wasn't their fault.

Yes, it's harsh but it's the deterrent. If you don't want those detrimental things to rain down on you, be ethical in the first place and follow the rules.

The only issue is whether the people putting the rules in place actually follow through on the consequences. The one thing I find is the fastest way to emasculate yourself of any authority or respect is to lay down a bunch of rules and then completely disregard the impetus of following through on them.

If you can't stomach enforcing the consequences, don't make the rule in the first place. That's the fastest way to ensure we'll be a laughing stock of a sport for all eternity.

 

[kristenthegreat]

If we want to be a sport, we need to play like one. High school and college teams forfeit entire seasons and face sanctions because of one athlete (and trust me, they lie too about residency, ages, grades etc)...look at what happened with Penn State due to one coach. Past present and future PSU athletes are paying for that and it wasn't their fault.

Yes, it's harsh but it's the deterrent. If you don't want those detrimental things to rain down on you, be ethical in the first place and follow the rules.

The only issue is whether the people putting the rules in place actually follow through on the consequences. The one thing I find is the fastest way to emasculate yourself of any authority or respect is to lay down a bunch of rules and then completely disregard the impetus of following through on them.

If you can't stomach enforcing the consequences, don't make the rule in the first place. That's the fastest way to ensure we'll be a laughing stock of a sport for all eternity.

Plenty of players who had signed on for the next season were given the chance to go elsewhere, however. As long as they don't play/practice for Penn State beyond 2013, they will be allowed to go wherever they want and therefore they won't face those sanctions. However, if an athlete knowingly lies about his/her eligibility and then skips town after the gym is punished, as it stands said athlete faces no sanctions either. Without a body of evidence (SOLID STUFF) collected and stored somewhere 'impartial', what's to stop someone cheering for, say, Cheer Athletics, screwing them out of Worlds, then hopping over to Spirit of Texas next season? Or finishing up their senior year with Cali and heading to some team on the East Coast? Would they be able to legally release the name of the illegal athlete? Or would there be protections if they are a minor?

 

[Underestimated]

I'm still waiting to find out who this is reffering too...

WHAT IS THE REAL TEA.... ?

 

[njallday]

I'm still waiting to find out who this is reffering too...

WHAT IS THE REAL TEA.... ?

i'm curious as well.. only because mr meanj himself keeps tweeting about rumors going around today. guess i'll never be on the privileged end of things