All-Star Slowing Progression?

[schpo]

Ok I'm not sure if this works but here is Noah

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That's my CP's cartwheel too! I have bribed her to improve it. Once her tumbling coach is happy with it, she has asked for a Hershey's Cookies n Cream bar. I figure I can do that :)

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

About progression and the young ones:

I tell people with young ones (like Youth aged kids under 8) all the time that. KIDS. HAVE. UNTIL. THEY. ARE. LIKE 19. TO. BE. LEVEL 5.

Not sure what the rush is for your kid to be throwing a full by 10-12.

Restricted 5 and Worlds teams aren't going anywhere.

And really, if she's throwing a full BEFORE that, she's not going to be on a Level 5 because there are only like 5-7 Youth 5 teams in existence so she'll probably STILL end up on Youth or Junior 2-4 somewhere.

No reason to rush your kid if there is literally NOWHERE for them to cheer once they get to that point (unless you so happen to be within range of a program that fields a Y5 team.)

That, and there's a reason there's only a handful of those teams. That level of competition is not for everyone.

 

[gymmomla]

That's my CP's cartwheel too! I have bribed her to improve it. Once her tumbling coach is happy with it, she has asked for a Hershey's Cookies n Cream bar. I figure I can do that :)

Yeah I think I asked him if he wanted an ice cream cone ! Lolb

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

There's a gymnastics gym close by that has the reputation of being the "miracle gym" and if your child can't get a skill, people from HS cheer will tell you to take your child there and ask for the "miracle" coach. Oldest had been working on her running tuck for over a year at her AS gym and could not get her set correct so cp begged to go to the "miracle" gym. After a few weeks the coach told her she had it on the tumble track, and told her she was read to throw it by herself. Her set didn't look much different to me, but hey, I was excited to finally see my kid throw her running tuck by herself. All I can say is when your child is laying on the mat after landing on their neck in a contorted, crumpled mess, you really realize how stupid it is to want something quickly instead of correctly. I can't tell you how grateful I was to see my child stand up, only to have that coach say, "learn from your mistakes, do it again". People flock to this coach and I will say her talent is her ability to convince kids they have a skill and to throw it whether they are ready or not. We didn't go back, but she's always booked.

"Just throw it" is a really awesome way to get kids totally mentally blocked to the point that they cannot tumble at all.

I have worked with kids whose previous coaches (rec program) told them to "just throw" their standing tucks.

In particular, a girl who was a solid Junior 2 at a well-known program near me. She took a year off of all stars for rec/football cheer.

Coach was very "just throw it." Like, they went from round off single BHS to standing tucks in a week. On grass. One of them fell a lot. A lot. Like "trip to the ER" bad.

That was last season.

The one who went to the ER is now struggling to cartwheel and BWO. Seriously. Terrified like "need a spot and about to cry" for a BWO and not tumbling on her Junior 1 team. I honestly do not know (being honest because I am not a miracle worker) if she will EVER actually invert herself and tumble. All because someone thought they could go straight from running RO BHS to tucks and "just throw it."

 

[Cheer Dad]

I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about and I feel the same way. I took my CP when she was 6 to learn her BHS. The very first time she stepped on the mat with the coach, she told my cp to throw it. No spot or anything. My CP was better off working on it at home with me. We pulled out the futon mattress and practice every night until she could do it by herself. She even made the mini2 team that year. I have a cheermom that swears by this coach and her no nonsense approach. She thinks it works best for her CP. I learned very quickly that that approach isn't a suitable coaching style for my CP. However, it doesn't work for some.

That's impressive if you know because my post was about no one specific.

 

[FlexyTumblerMom]

I'm sure the rush for younger kids to get their full ASAP has a lot to do w/ how a kid CAN compete at World's at 12. Just like w/ pointe shoes in dance, it's all about bragging rights - SM parents want to be able to say their kid is the youngest kid at Worlds cause she is so amazing. Also, some SM's may see it as a ticket to being a flyer by being the youngest kid on a senior L5 team - because at most gyms, the L5 team is senior, making a 12 year old w/ L5 skills very likely to be a flyer.

If they raised the age limit for senior teams, I think a lot of pressure would be off of the younger Suzies to get their fulls.

 

[Cheer Dad]

I'm sure the rush for younger kids to get their full ASAP has a lot to do w/ how a kid CAN compete at World's at 12. Just like w/ pointe shoes in dance, it's all about bragging rights - SM parents want to be able to say their kid is the youngest kid at Worlds cause she is so amazing. Also, some SM's may see it as a ticket to being a flyer by being the youngest kid on a senior L5 team - because at most gyms, the L5 team is senior, making a 12 year old w/ L5 skills very likely to be a flyer.

If they raised the age limit for senior teams, I think a lot of pressure would be off of the younger Suzies to get their fulls.

Maybe some pressure but it will always be a race to try proving Suzie is better.

 

[seein_starz]

You just might be the best mom ever.

Can you take this conversation on the road - to the peeps whose kids I've done privates with?

There is nothing sadder than seeing a mental blocked kid with a mom who is constantly saying after lessons:

"I don't understand why you can't just throw it!"

"If you don't throw it by August, you have to quit!"

"If you can't get her to throw it, we'll have to go somewhere else!"

Or stopping me as soon as I step off of the gym floor with "Did she THROW IT TODAY?"

or my favorite:

"Can't you just let her fall a couple of times so she'll snap out of it?"

They are n0 closer to throwing it with all the above pressure. They're actually closer to just saying screw cheer and I never want to see this mat again.

The best you can do is just stop asking and just BE THERE.

When I had a mental block, my mom was like this for a while and then she stopped and after she stopped I got over my mental block so the added pressure from parents really does not help your kid want to throw the skill.

 

[seein_starz]

You know @Official OWECheer, that is the one thing I mentioned a lot on this message board... I noticed that many cheer coaches are not teaching this skill to the cheerleaders and I wondered if it may contribute to many of the mental blocks that cheerleaders are experiencing. I know when my daughter was learning how to tumble, the gymnastic coaches taught the athletes ways to safely fall out and pull out of tumbling skills, which most involved tucking in the heads to the chest and round out the back and/or making the body go into a ball to protect the head and neck areas... I see so many cheerleaders just crashing, looking like crash dummies, there is no attempt to protect vital areas like the head and neck...

PS: I know my daughter's private instructor comes from the gymnastics background and he mentioned to me, he wanted to teach this skill, but many of the parents who are paying him for privates do not want him to use instructional time for this vital lesson...That may be the reason why gymnast practice so many more hours too,,, because I remember when my daughter was taking gymnastics they will spend the first 30 minutes working on something they call form and technique and everybody had to point their toes the same, correct hand movements and it included preventative tumbling too...

I remember when I was young I didn't know anything about falling out of tumbling but that was before I was doing tucks or anything that needed to be safely fallen out of, I've been going to Woodward cheer camp for 6 years now and every year the first thing we do in the gym is learn how to fall safely on everything (trampoline, floor, beam, ect.) and I use this skill every single time I tumble. From what I've noticed at my gym, I'm the only one who knows this skill because everyone else immediately sticks their arms out to catch themselves (HUGE no no! I actually broke my arm twice doing this)

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Call me crazy, but I had another thought about mental blocks and progressions this AM on my way to work:

I think that some of the mental blocks, awful technique, can also be attributed to the fact that so many kids "skip level 1."

Call me a nutjob, but you'd be surprised at how many kids with mental blocks on BHS don't have solid BWOs, bridge kickovers, etc. Those skills build on each other and are part of the Level list for a reason.

 

[SheCheers]

I am kinda in a different boat. I have a 5 year old who cheers on a Youth 2 team at a small gym. She currently has most level 3 tumbling skills but only level 2 stunting skills. The problem I am having is she is just getting these skills without being pushed. Tumbling just comes easy to her and I am scared with her being so young, that she might burn out from it. I don't push her at all and she would live at the gym if I let her. Any tips on slowing her progression? I like the fact that her stunting skills are not as advanced as her tumbling skills so she won't be rushed to move up levels cheer wise. How do you tell a kid to slow down an enjoy it?

It sounds like she is enjoying it. Gaining skills quickly naturally, without being pushed isn't a negative thing. Kids like that don't need privates or extra classes, so I wouldn't do those at that age, if it was my kid. I don't believe in holding back a kid just because they're progressing fast, what would that accomplish? (Assuming they're progressing with correct form and safely). I would definitely focus mostly on technique, as most 5 year olds don't have the body control, pointed toes, feet together, legs straight, etc in their tumbling (again I said most). So, at 5 just make sure she is being taught proper form rather than "when can Susie get the next skill?"

 

[cheergoogle]

About progression and the young ones:

I tell people with young ones (like Youth aged kids under 8) all the time that. KIDS. HAVE. UNTIL. THEY. ARE. LIKE 19. TO. BE. LEVEL 5.

Not sure what the rush is for your kid to be throwing a full by 10-12.

Restricted 5 and Worlds teams aren't going anywhere.

And really, if she's throwing a full BEFORE that, she's not going to be on a Level 5 because there are only like 5-7 Youth 5 teams in existence so she'll probably STILL end up on Youth or Junior 2-4 somewhere.

No reason to rush your kid if there is literally NOWHERE for them to cheer once they get to that point (unless you so happen to be within range of a program that fields a Y5 team.)

That, and there's a reason there's only a handful of those teams. That level of competition is not for everyone.

I live in an area with a successful Youth 5/Junior 5 program. The pressure is real.

 

[FlexyTumblerMom]

I live in an area with a successful Youth 5/Junior 5 program. The pressure is real.

And would you say that being on one of those Y5/J5 teams is a "unofficial prerequisite" to later getting on that (or those) gym's top Worlds team down the line? I'm just curious cause I've always wondered this about those gyms w/ the Y5 teams - like if your ultimate goal is to eventuallybe on "the" World's team for that gym, do you need to come up from Y5 cause it's just the "elite path" for that gym?

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

^^^^I think this was discussed pretty well in the World Cup Twinkle/Shooting Star thread a few months back.

The short answer (for WC anyway) was not always.

Every kid on SS didn't come up from Twinkles to Starlites to SS.

There are kids who age off of Twinkles and end up on a number of their Level 4 or 5 teams.

I'd assume that the same is true for other gyms who field Y5 as well.

Ex: Every single kid on Senior Elite did not do the YE to JE to Senior Elite path. Every kid on Rays Orange wasn't once a Teal.

In that same vein, not every kid on Green or Youth Elite ends up on Orange or Senior Elite. They end up on a variety of L4 or 5 teams.

There are even some Y5 kids who age off of Y5 and decide that they really don't want to cheer anymore and leave cheer entirely.

So I'd imagine that no, it's not a prerquisite to a Worlds team in many places (because very few kids that young even have skills like that, so you can't field Worlds teams entirely based on your Y5/J5.)

 

[retiredl5cheer]

And would you say that being on one of those Y5/J5 teams is a "unofficial prerequisite" to later getting on that (or those) gym's top Worlds team down the line? I'm just curious cause I've always wondered this about those gyms w/ the Y5 teams - like if your ultimate goal is to eventuallybe on "the" World's team for that gym, do you need to come up from Y5 cause it's just the "elite path" for that gym?

The talent level tends to drop off pretty significantly at Y5. I've heard in numerous cases that many Twinkles and Youth Elite girls are not level 5 tumblers. During the Glitter Penguins fiasco it was reiterated a million times that most of the YE crossovers are not "true" level 5 cheerleaders. You can also see in the Twinkles video that some of those kids are on the team because they are incredible bases or flyers, but lack level 5 tumbling skills. It seems like Y5 teams are forced to/choose to turn to specialists more than J5 and S5 teams. My assumption considering those facts is that many of the Y5 kids are placed on level 3 or 4 teams once they age off Y5. It's easier to field a J5 or S5 will 100% level 5 skills, so many of those kids will be pushed to lower level teams.

In short, I don't believe that Y5 is a guarantee that you'll be on a J5 or S5 when you age off Youth.