All-Star Too Many Boys On The Floor

[socratesofcheer]

Just a random thought... I'm pretty sure the reason Bangkok wasn't at ICU or Worlds last year had to do with those Volcano eruptions and not being able to leave their country and NOT b/c of anything else last year...

Thu were at worlds, it was with a level 5 team.

 

[cheerinfo]

I still just want the legality infractions addressed....

 

[ROCKnROLLS]

USASF needs to step it up or we will never be accepted as a sport!

agreed!

 

[socratesofcheer]

I still just want the legality infractions addressed....

Don't hold your breath. There are way too many shenanigans going on with this team and how it was handled.

It is sad that the integrity of the event is going to be compromised because the USASF is choosing to look the other way.

Today is a major step back from the progress we have made in this sport.

 

[ROCKnROLLS]

i dont think bangkok purposefully broke the rules. im sure there was some sort of miscommunication somewhere. i say, give em break and lets all play fair next year, bc whats done in 2011 is done.

so then you're saying "give them a break" .Then there's no consequence for breaking the rules, which if done with awareness is CHEATING, without awareness is still breaking the rules! I'm sorry but none of my teams were given "a break" nor do they seek one, only justice.

 

[ROCKnROLLS]

Are we sure Bangkok was able to accurately translate the rules? When the rules of this sport differ based on what rules packet you read, there are bound to be miscommunications and errors. Why can you compete with more than 12 boys during the year, but not at Worlds? Huh? Why make the rules suddenly change?

And who is in charge of going over the rosters submitted for Worlds? The number of females and males should be clearly indicated on every team list, and if a discrepancy was noticed, a team like Thailand should have been notified before they even WENT to Worlds. And if it wasn't caught then, it should have at least been noticed during the competition. It's a huge shame when something as glaring as number of females and males on the floor is carelessly glanced over.

are you seriously saying with a lucid mind that a team that has been able to translate English all year long, being a member of IASF, competing through the year, qualifying, traveling, financing, etc. All of a sudden can't translate the number 12 into English? come on give me a break!

 

[cheerinfo]

While I appreciate Les coming on here and offering SOME sort of explanation for the extra boys, I still take issue with it. @RulesGuy , the thing i dont understand is Bangkok had all of saturday to fix their pyramid. What I gather from what you wrote is that bangkok had an entire day to fix things taking from 15 to 12 guys, walked into the warmup room, FIRST performed their pyramid with 15 guys so you all could notice they had illegal people, then start taking boys out to move down to 12, then a USASF person saw them taking out their boys and went over to them and said 'no no, you can have more than 12'? And after all that, in their 10 minute warmup, they finished warming up the rest of their routine. Why would a team who has an entire free day and knows they cannot have more than 12 guys wait until the warmup room and in that measly 10 minutes start to change stuff?

Also, still does not explain how they got away with with assisted tumbling, not enough catchers for a pyramid dismount, and not enough spotters for all the flyers in the air in their pyramids. Not trying to be difficult, but this IS Worlds, and it IS a big deal. I just feel that rules are rules are rules. They are there for a reason. Bangkok CLEARLY had several advantages in their Sunday night performance. Just does NOT seem fair.

 

[ROCKnROLLS]

Maybe it's just me but if I'm signing something then I feel I would be responsible for understanding what I am signing no matter what language it is in...so this language barrier thing is kind of a cop out!

agreed. It is insulting and patronizing to use an excuse like maybe they couldn't translate the number 12!

 

[ROCKnROLLS]

But was the tumbling coming from enough members of the team to fall into the 4-5pts range? The scoresheet states: "Most to all of performers attempting skill compared to number on the floor."

Right. and most means majority, which means that more than 50% of members otherwise you DESERVE minimum points.

 

[kobegirl]

Not only was it accepted that they were still 'allowed' to compete with extra guys, they were given 'reduced' penalties? what? Sorry. You noticed, didn't reschedule them so they could rework the routine and didn't fire the erroneous employee. This is making a mockery of cheerleading rules and worlds. I get it that it isn't stated exactly in one 'spot', but it is KNOWN that you can only have 12 guys and Bangkok knew it. An employee made an error and it was caught before mat time, yet they still were allowed to forge ahead breaking rules because? Twice? Really seems crazy that Bangkok was assisted in breaking the rules. And the other teams that had over 12?

So, now on to the judges......
Nobody caught the illegalities in the routine?
How can they possibly tie with GT with below par tumbling? I mean, really. Round off rebounds. At worlds. And you tie for first. Running round off tucks and backhandsprings. A whole tremendous total of 3 standing 2 to a full. And you tie for first. Crazy. Those judges were caught up with the crowd, methinks.

This is what USA coaches are telling their athletes for Worlds: you are judged not only on the tumbling, but how well it is executed. Meaning no ugly fulls, you should most likely have a combo to a full or double. And Bangkok wins with running BHs and a few rebounds and a total of 9 running BH fulls. They didn't even have majority standing tucks unless you count the 6 guys that did it twice. Would that be acceptable for a US team? This is WORLDS.

Were their pyramids really scored high enough to make up for the lack of squad level 5 tumbling? Are the score sheets going to get released to the coaches any time soon?

 

[CheerMomNTx]

Nope, not happy with looking the other way especially if they knew they were in 'violation'.

 

[yojaehs]

The Facts:
Sorry to all for not being on here earlier. After Worlds, I spent Monday and Tuesday in Orlando in meetings. I traveled home today in time to pick my sons up from school and my wife up from work only to get home and pass out for three hours on the couch. (And that's why I am up at 2:15am writing on these boards)

As most of you know, I am the Executive Director for rules for the USASF as well as the competition official for Worlds.

I will try to explain as much as possible about this situation without going as far as breaking confidentiality agreements for my job. Like most professional competitions (especially for Worlds) no judge or official is allowed to discuss specific details about ANY team.

I will also try to address some of the inaccuracies from earlier posts. However, I WILL NOT be dragged into conversations and conspiracy theories on message boards.

Yes, Thailand and a couple of other teams competed with more than 12 males. However, before I get into the story, you need some previous details.
-For the past few years, this division has been allowed to qualify for a bid with more than 12 males but were expected to cut to 12 for Worlds.
-The USASF Age Grid says 1 or more males but the Worlds packet says 1-12 males.
-Also, the ICU which is on the Thursday and Friday before Worlds (in the same location) allows more than 12 males on a team
-the final detail, this division did not compete on Saturday but competed twice on Sunday

SUNDAY
Thailand shows up for their warm-ups for prelims and is ready to cut their number of males down to 12 (from 15). As we always do, we had USASF safety judges in the warm up area to help catch legality violations. When my safety judges saw Thailand removing the three males from the routine (or maybe Thailand asked if they needed to-I am not positive on this), the safety judges looked in the rule book (which includes the USASF Age Grid and not the Worlds packet) and told them not to remove the males because the rules say "1 or more males". Is this a mess up on the Safety Judge's part? no - they were reading the materials given to them. Is this a mess up on Thailand's part? no - they were prepared to remove the males but were instructed not to by official USASF Safety Judges. I would have to take the blame on myself for not providing my safety judges with the correct information. That one line is the ONLY line that is different in ALL of the rules, glossary and age grid and I missed it. My apologies to you all.

SUNDAY AFTERNOON
Up to this point I was busy handling a million other situations at Worlds. It was then brought to my attention (over the walkie talkie headsets) that another team filed a complaint about a team competing with too many males. At this point I still had no idea which teams were involved. I went immediately to our paperwork only to find out this has never happened before so there was neither a rule written nor a precedent set.
I then received the details of the teams involved and started researching the situation. My first reaction was to penalize their prelim scores but this was a non issue because no matter what their score was, the top 3 teams from each country advance to Finals. Next, I met with the coaches of Thailand (the ones who understood and spoke broken English). I informed them they had two choices: 1. remove the males from Finals (which they would be warming up for within the next hour or two) or 2. receive a deep penalty for each male over the limit.

AND THAT"S WHEN THINGS GOT INTERESTING
Being the respectful and gracious people they are (if you saw them enter the main stage, you know what I am talking about), they were very apologetic but then informed me they planned on removing the 3 males earlier that morning only to be told to keep them in by my staff. This is when I found out the situation had absolutely nothing to do with Thailand not following the rules.
NOW - imagine my predicament. In the middle of the most elite and intense competition in cheerleading, a team tries to follow the rules only to be inadvertently instructed not to follow the rules by an official of the event with Finals less than two hours away and warm ups about an hour away.

MY DECISION
Keep the option for them to remove the extra males from the team and receive no deduction or leave the males on and receive a lesser deduction than earlier stated since it is our (the USASF's) fault that they were allowed to compete earlier that day and minimal time to adjust the routine. I also informed them that if they kept the males on for Finals, then I would HAVE to give them some sort of penalty to keep it fair to the other teams. From what I understand, for safety reasons, they decided to keep the males on and let the chips fall as they do.

I FINALLY GOT TO WATCH
Out of the 385 teams, most of which performed more than once, I was able to watch only about 7 of the performances this year. Gymtime and Thailand in Finals were two of the seven. I also, for the first time in a LONG time, decided to not watch from a safety judge stand point but from a fan of cheer stand point. All I can say is Gymtime stunts - WOW and Thailand pyramids - WOW - the rest I will leave up to the panel judges.
The most impressive thing I saw all weekend was the class of GT. When Thailand finished the routine and GT walked back on the mat to support Thailand, the standing ovation in the crowd grew even louder. It was a moment I will never forget and I so much appreciate GT for being such a Class Act.

WHAT ABOUT THE FUTURE - WHAT'S BEING DONE
1. The new Age Grid is consistent with the Worlds Packet. (I am NOT going through this again.) It reads 1-12 males.
2. Performing with too many males will have a set penalty, be it DQ or something else.
3. I am trying to work with the ICU to further streamline rules, restrictions and requirements between them and Worlds.

So there you have it. I truly hope this helps everyone and gives you some perspective of the situation. No favors were done, no secrets were kept, it was just me making a mistake and trying to be as fair to every team as possible. Was it the best solution? Who knows. It was the best I could do and would do it again if given the same set of circumstances.

Les

P.S. I apologize if the above post has spelling or grammatical errors. It is now 3:30am and I am too tired to go back and proof read.

I thank you for a reply of some sort. I don't believe it answers all the questions but at least clears up WHY there too many boys on the floor. I still believe they broke too many other rules. I also think that in the future you need to get some more qualified safety officials bc I along with anyone else on this board could have told you at the beginning of the the 2010/2011 season that 12 boys was the absolute most allowed on the floor, but that's your story, enjoy sticking to it.

 

[cheer.obsessed.88]

Not only was it accepted that they were still 'allowed' to compete with extra guys, they were given 'reduced' penalties? what? Sorry. You noticed, didn't reschedule them so they could rework the routine and didn't fire the erroneous employee. This is making a mockery of cheerleading rules and worlds. I get it that it isn't stated exactly in one 'spot', but it is KNOWN that you can only have 12 guys and Bangkok knew it. An employee made an error and it was caught before mat time, yet they still were allowed to forge ahead breaking rules because? Twice? Really seems crazy that Bangkok was assisted in breaking the rules. And the other teams that had over 12?

So, now on to the judges......
Nobody caught the illegalities in the routine?
How can they possibly tie with GT with below par tumbling? I mean, really. Round off rebounds. At worlds. And you tie for first. Running round off tucks and backhandsprings. A whole tremendous total of 3 standing 2 to a full. And you tie for first. Crazy. Those judges were caught up with the crowd, methinks.

This is what USA coaches are telling their athletes for Worlds: you are judged not only on the tumbling, but how well it is executed. Meaning no ugly fulls, you should most likely have a combo to a full or double. And Bangkok wins with running BHs and a few rebounds and a total of 9 running BH fulls. They didn't even have majority standing tucks unless you count the 6 guys that did it twice. Would that be acceptable for a US team? This is WORLDS.

Were their pyramids really scored high enough to make up for the lack of squad level 5 tumbling? Are the score sheets going to get released to the coaches any time soon?

Just commenting on the tumbling... I competed at worlds in all girl 6 last year. The international 6 score sheet is heavily carried by stunting. We threw 20 fulls...and it just didn't matter. I BELIEVE it was like 15% of the scoresheet. Apparently, the USA has an advantage in tumbling..and they were attempting to even out the playing field. Don't agree with it. And believe me...I most definitely did not agree with this last year when I was in the middle of it. Tumbling is equally important in the sport. It shouldn't be minimized to make it "fair". But just my opinion.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

Did the coaches not receive prelims or finals score sheets?

 

[ROCKnROLLS]

Not only was it accepted that they were still 'allowed' to compete with extra guys, they were given 'reduced' penalties? what? Sorry. You noticed, didn't reschedule them so they could rework the routine and didn't fire the erroneous employee. This is making a mockery of cheerleading rules and worlds. I get it that it isn't stated exactly in one 'spot', but it is KNOWN that you can only have 12 guys and Bangkok knew it. An employee made an error and it was caught before mat time, yet they still were allowed to forge ahead breaking rules because? Twice? Really seems crazy that Bangkok was assisted in breaking the rules. And the other teams that had over 12?

So, now on to the judges......
Nobody caught the illegalities in the routine?
How can they possibly tie with GT with below par tumbling? I mean, really. Round off rebounds. At worlds. And you tie for first. Running round off tucks and backhandsprings. A whole tremendous total of 3 standing 2 to a full. And you tie for first. Crazy. Those judges were caught up with the crowd, methinks.

This is what USA coaches are telling their athletes for Worlds: you are judged not only on the tumbling, but how well it is executed. Meaning no ugly fulls, you should most likely have a combo to a full or double. And Bangkok wins with running BHs and a few rebounds and a total of 9 running BH fulls. They didn't even have majority standing tucks unless you count the 6 guys that did it twice. Would that be acceptable for a US team? This is WORLDS.

Were their pyramids really scored high enough to make up for the lack of squad level 5 tumbling? Are the score sheets going to get released to the coaches any time soon?

Witnessed the same DISCRIMINATION in IO6.