All-Star Too Many Boys On The Floor

[PaigeColon]

I don't think they should be stripped of their title, however i feel like on saturday, they should have been giving the proper deductions or what it may be, forced to fix their error on sunday, and then compete, it's only fair.

they only competed sunday.

 

[rvnblue]

I think the "turn the other cheek" approach the USASF/IASF gave to the situation during Worlds was not to be commended in this situation. The blatant refusal to approach the team and confront them by event coordinators is simply inexcusable in my opinion. I also do not understand why legalities were overlooked such as a deduction for an illegal brace on a pyramid, which would cause point changes and possible placing changes.
Honestly, I feel the USASF will have a lot of negativity headed its way not only from fans, but from the committees through which they decide to, in the future, become an Olympic Sport or part of any other major organization. The USASF has lost its chance of becoming a "trustworthy" and "promising" institution to represent All Star Cheerleading in any other facet than under its own self.

 

[cheermommaRN]

The problem I have in all of this is that it is a trend in our industry, not just at the Worlds level. Last season at Cheer America a team we competed against threw multiple standing back handsprings during their standing tumbling section. NOTHING was done, no deductions, just a warning. The next day you could see the kids stop themselves...pause...and then throw their next back handspring. I thought I was crazy but parents from another gym noticed it as well.
What is the point of having rules if they won't be enforced? I guess we can just do whatever we want and claim ignorance?

 

[Mom Jeans]

Someone took that a little too seriously. That wasn't exactly a racial slur. We all know that asians are great at math.

I know you mean well, but that response doesn't really help stereotypes. Our schools are majority Asian, about 70% (I'm not) but these stereotypes do not sit well in our community. Joke or not if someone tells you it offends them, it offends them.

 

[Mom Jeans]

OK....but if you are warned not to take performance enhancing drugs prior to your participation at the Olympics, but you ignore that...you win, your test results come back AFTER the win as being positive for these drugs...then you should be able to keep your title? NOPE. Plenty of athletes have been stripped of their titles, medals, etc. after they have won due to tings being caught AFTER. Fact is, Bangkok competed totally illegally and performed illegal skills within that illegal team. The English language is NOT the issue here. The team, the USASF and the IASK ARE the issues here. Rules were broken. PERIOD. There is no disputing that. How, why, when, whatever matters not. It needs to be remedied. THE END.

I agree with this on so many levels, why is it that USASF doesn't feel the same as the rest of us? Whenever I have mentioned cheating the response is always file a complaint, have our gym owner file a compliant, why aren't these things caught by USASF or are they and they choose not to do anything about it. IDK but something needs to be done, that why people keep cheating.

 

[4me2Kno]

The worlds packet we had, had the rules in them... In black and white, u have to follow the
. There should be so many checks and balances to prevent such things... A routines legalities should be caught at the qualifying comp... Aren't you supposed to submit a video with your paperwork as well, or it would be caught and reviewed in the worlds warm up room... There were 2 mats right up front I asked what they were for, just for legalities... And the issues must have been caught after the first performance...

My question is, isn't there a HUGE liability for the USASF to allow a team to throw illegal and potentially dangerous skills... There is a reason a lot of the rules for level 6 are in place, safety. What if one of those athletes got hurt doing those skills that just about everyone knows is illegal? That could have been a big problem... Well, we knew it was illegal, the usasf knew it was illegal... What would an insurance company say? And for a team to be rewarded with a first place globe for blatant rules legalities and ignoring the roster rules as well is just wrong.

Our team had a girl get in a serious car accident the day before the team left for worlds, she was unable to travel and compete with the team and since we had used our three subs and did not have other teams at the bid qualifying event we were out of options! We emailed and called everyone at the usasf to see if we could have an exception for extenuating circumstances, a 4th sub. The injured athletes sister would have been able to fill in, take over the registration, flight, spot In routine... Every call and email came back with the same, I'm sorry but the rules are the rules!!! Well are they or aren't they???

My team of 20 went to 19 because we were required to follow the rules, and had to rework a whole routine last minute... Which I completely understood and knew it was most likely to happen with an exception being a long shot. We accepted it and moved on. We followed the rules as we were instructed to by our governing body and had the worlds experience which under the circumstances was a rough one. I explained to the kids and parents that these are the rules and everybody has to follow them without exceptions... What do I tell them now? Our team follows the rules and was rewarded with all the extra work and frustration of doing our best to follow the guidelines while another team that isn't held to the same rules is rewarded with a worlds title?

I thought one of the main reasons for the usasf and the naccc was the same rules for everybody and a level playing field and fair play, and worlds should be the epitome of such things... ? If rules are rules, everyone needs to follow them, and if no exceptions can be made then why are some exceptions made and others not?

 

[kobegirl]

it appears that it is [email protected]
[email protected] is listed.
so i assume...
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

Also for Les
[email protected]

and the contact page
http://usasf.net/contact/

Also try to contact members of the national advisory board
http://usasf.net/news/?id=245

And if you really want to make your voice heard, then try to contact every single email address you have for someone at USASF. go through the worlds packet, there are some in there. Go to the schedule page, there is one there. Then there are email addresses for the rep for EVERY state. If you send them all a message and ask them to forward it, i'm sure they will.

Handle it like you would if you needed to write a letter to congress.

ALSO. Before you send them an email. I would go through a video (it can be the one on the iasfworlds.org site) and tell them specific instances of what is wrong. Like for example.. at 1:12 in their routine, there is a pyramid with no spotter in the front. at 1:15 there is a dismount with 1 catcher.

Okay, so the thing to do now is for all forum members to get this corrected, if possible. Let the mass emails begin! Thanks for posting these addresses! My cp wants to attend worlds one day, and getting this corrected sooner, rather than later, will help that goal out. Let us all type up a response and send it on it's cyber-way! Really, until they hear from all of the parents/cps/coaches on this issue, they will be reluctant to make ANY changes.

 

[cupieqt]

...
I thought one of the main reasons for the usasf and the naccc was the same rules for everybody and a level playing field and fair play, and worlds should be the epitome of such things... ? If rules are rules, everyone needs to follow them, and if no exceptions can be made then why are some exceptions made and others not?

Because apparently, exceptions are made. Just not for you.

 

[USASF Rules]

The Facts:
Sorry to all for not being on here earlier. After Worlds, I spent Monday and Tuesday in Orlando in meetings. I traveled home today in time to pick my sons up from school and my wife up from work only to get home and pass out for three hours on the couch. (And that's why I am up at 2:15am writing on these boards)

As most of you know, I am the Executive Director for rules for the USASF as well as the competition official for Worlds.

I will try to explain as much as possible about this situation without going as far as breaking confidentiality agreements for my job. Like most professional competitions (especially for Worlds) no judge or official is allowed to discuss specific details about ANY team.

I will also try to address some of the inaccuracies from earlier posts. However, I WILL NOT be dragged into conversations and conspiracy theories on message boards.

Yes, Thailand and a couple of other teams competed with more than 12 males. However, before I get into the story, you need some previous details.
-For the past few years, this division has been allowed to qualify for a bid with more than 12 males but were expected to cut to 12 for Worlds.
-The USASF Age Grid says 1 or more males but the Worlds packet says 1-12 males.
-Also, the ICU which is on the Thursday and Friday before Worlds (in the same location) allows more than 12 males on a team
-the final detail, this division did not compete on Saturday but competed twice on Sunday

SUNDAY
Thailand shows up for their warm-ups for prelims and is ready to cut their number of males down to 12 (from 15). As we always do, we had USASF safety judges in the warm up area to help catch legality violations. When my safety judges saw Thailand removing the three males from the routine (or maybe Thailand asked if they needed to-I am not positive on this), the safety judges looked in the rule book (which includes the USASF Age Grid and not the Worlds packet) and told them not to remove the males because the rules say "1 or more males". Is this a mess up on the Safety Judge's part? no - they were reading the materials given to them. Is this a mess up on Thailand's part? no - they were prepared to remove the males but were instructed not to by official USASF Safety Judges. I would have to take the blame on myself for not providing my safety judges with the correct information. That one line is the ONLY line that is different in ALL of the rules, glossary and age grid and I missed it. My apologies to you all.

SUNDAY AFTERNOON
Up to this point I was busy handling a million other situations at Worlds. It was then brought to my attention (over the walkie talkie headsets) that another team filed a complaint about a team competing with too many males. At this point I still had no idea which teams were involved. I went immediately to our paperwork only to find out this has never happened before so there was neither a rule written nor a precedent set.
I then received the details of the teams involved and started researching the situation. My first reaction was to penalize their prelim scores but this was a non issue because no matter what their score was, the top 3 teams from each country advance to Finals. Next, I met with the coaches of Thailand (the ones who understood and spoke broken English). I informed them they had two choices: 1. remove the males from Finals (which they would be warming up for within the next hour or two) or 2. receive a deep penalty for each male over the limit.

AND THAT"S WHEN THINGS GOT INTERESTING
Being the respectful and gracious people they are (if you saw them enter the main stage, you know what I am talking about), they were very apologetic but then informed me they planned on removing the 3 males earlier that morning only to be told to keep them in by my staff. This is when I found out the situation had absolutely nothing to do with Thailand not following the rules.
NOW - imagine my predicament. In the middle of the most elite and intense competition in cheerleading, a team tries to follow the rules only to be inadvertently instructed not to follow the rules by an official of the event with Finals less than two hours away and warm ups about an hour away.

MY DECISION
Keep the option for them to remove the extra males from the team and receive no deduction or leave the males on and receive a lesser deduction than earlier stated since it is our (the USASF's) fault that they were allowed to compete earlier that day and minimal time to adjust the routine. I also informed them that if they kept the males on for Finals, then I would HAVE to give them some sort of penalty to keep it fair to the other teams. From what I understand, for safety reasons, they decided to keep the males on and let the chips fall as they do.

I FINALLY GOT TO WATCH
Out of the 385 teams, most of which performed more than once, I was able to watch only about 7 of the performances this year. Gymtime and Thailand in Finals were two of the seven. I also, for the first time in a LONG time, decided to not watch from a safety judge stand point but from a fan of cheer stand point. All I can say is Gymtime stunts - WOW and Thailand pyramids - WOW - the rest I will leave up to the panel judges.
The most impressive thing I saw all weekend was the class of GT. When Thailand finished the routine and GT walked back on the mat to support Thailand, the standing ovation in the crowd grew even louder. It was a moment I will never forget and I so much appreciate GT for being such a Class Act.

WHAT ABOUT THE FUTURE - WHAT'S BEING DONE
1. The new Age Grid is consistent with the Worlds Packet. (I am NOT going through this again.) It reads 1-12 males.
2. Performing with too many males will have a set penalty, be it DQ or something else.
3. I am trying to work with the ICU to further streamline rules, restrictions and requirements between them and Worlds.

So there you have it. I truly hope this helps everyone and gives you some perspective of the situation. No favors were done, no secrets were kept, it was just me making a mistake and trying to be as fair to every team as possible. Was it the best solution? Who knows. It was the best I could do and would do it again if given the same set of circumstances.

Les

P.S. I apologize if the above post has spelling or grammatical errors. It is now 3:30am and I am too tired to go back and proof read.

 

[ztaprincess]

I was just about to post asking if everyone who doesnt think this is a big deal would be OK with F5 having 3 boys on the mat and still winning Large Senior.

Well according to that one kid that use to post here that is a-okay.

If this was a US team there would be so many people up in arms and forcing them to give their title back, but because an true International team finally placed with the big dogs it is all of a sudden not that big of a deal.

 

[ztaprincess]

Ok so that clears up the number of boys, but what about the illegal elements they had in their routine? How did those get looked over? If they were not looked over how is it that they were counted and the team still managed to tie with another team for first place? Seems like they would have had to score pretty dang high to have that many deductions and still place first.

 

[cheermommaRN]

Thank you Les!
As someone who has planned events in the past I can understand the predicament you were in at the time. When you have an event going of that size you have to make decisions fast and you did the best you could with what you had. Thank you for coming on here this late and clearing up the confusion.

 

[youbetterwork]

They knew it was 12 back in 2009.

Maybe they just had 12 boys? It's not exactly common with male cheerleaders outside US. And on the video from their nationals in 2009 it looks like they have 11 boys.

 

[drewpate]

Thank you very much for clearing this situation up. It was a crappy situation that you did the best you could with at the time, and with the age grid changes I think it's fair to day it wouldn't happen again. I know you can't discuss the other issues that have been brought up about the routine itself, but man I wish I could read your mind on those issues.

Can you tell us if the score breakdown will be made public however?

 

[cheerinfo]

Ok so that clears up the number of boys, but what about the illegal elements they had in their routine? How did those get looked over? If they were not looked over how is it that they were counted and the team still managed to tie with another team for first place? Seems like they would have had to score pretty dang high to have that many deductions and still place first.

Exactly....what about the 3 level 6 rules that they broke in their routine? Were they called? If they were not, I cannot imagine them being able to place 1st...or for any globe.

@RulesGuy - Thank you for clearing up the boys issue...but the legality issues still remain.....