All-Star Transgender Athletes?

[Ashley]

Science has shown that a pre-op transgendered person has very little, if any advantage, if they've been taking hormones for over a year. At that point, it doesn't matter what sexual organs you have, you have no advantage over a female athlete.

Unfortunately, until the USASF has a rule about transgendered athletes, it is absolutely up to those people to decide which team that athlete should be on. It's psychologically damaging to that athlete to force them to count as a male on a coed team if they've been taking hormones and living as a female for an extended period of time.

And even biology isn't as black as white as you'd think. People can be born intersex.

And since I can't edit - to add onto biology not being black and white - what determines your sex biologically? The easiest identifier is obviously the exterior sexual organs, but as I mentioned, that's not even that black and white since you can be born intersex and have interior organs of one sex and one of the other. If a woman is born without a uterus - does that means she's not a woman, since she's missing a key biological component of what makes a woman?

But it's a lot more than just that - hormones are a large part of it, men have much higher levels of testosterone after puberty which makes them stronger. That's biology - but with modern science, we can control that aspect of biology. We can take away all of the physical advantages men have if we can get their bodies to stop producing testosterone.

If I spend years taking hormones (which even minors can do with their parents permission) then I've change everything that makes me biologically male except for my external sexual organ, which is basically just semantics at that point. We don't look inside people's pants to determine whether or not that can compete.

As for legality - that comes down to what the doctor says you are when you're born. If you're born intersex (which I'm not arguing transgendered people are) then the parents are literally told to pick a sex and raise their kid as a Michelle instead of a Michael or vice versa.

It's really not that black and white, and needs to be handled on a case by case basis until the USASF makes a rule about it.

 

[redsmom]

As for legality - that comes down to what the doctor says you are when you're born. If you're born intersex (which I'm not arguing transgendered people are) then the parents are literally told to pick a sex and raise their kid as a Michelle instead of a Michael or vice versa.

It's really not that black and white, and needs to be handled on a case by case basis until the USASF makes a rule about it.

To add to the "legal" aspect, that is controlled at the state level and apparently laws vary from state to state, some allow birth certificates to be changed, some allow drivers licences to be changed and the criteria for these changes vary by state as well.

Additionally, also a quick google search will show you that transgender youth are using hormone therapy and even surgery.

So really not black and white at all.

 

[callmecoach]

And since I can't edit - to add onto biology not being black and white - what determines your sex biologically? The easiest identifier is obviously the exterior sexual organs, but as I mentioned, that's not even that black and white since you can be born intersex and have interior organs of one sex and one of the other. If a woman is born without a uterus - does that means she's not a woman, since she's missing a key biological component of what makes a woman?

But it's a lot more than just that - hormones are a large part of it, men have much higher levels of testosterone after puberty which makes them stronger. That's biology - but with modern science, we can control that aspect of biology. We can take away all of the physical advantages men have if we can get their bodies to stop producing testosterone.

If I spend years taking hormones (which even minors can do with their parents permission) then I've change everything that makes me biologically male except for my external sexual organ, which is basically just semantics at that point. We don't look inside people's pants to determine whether or not that can compete.

As for legality - that comes down to what the doctor says you are when you're born. If you're born intersex (which I'm not arguing transgendered people are) then the parents are literally told to pick a sex and raise their kid as a Michelle instead of a Michael or vice versa.

It's really not that black and white, and needs to be handled on a case by case basis until the USASF makes a rule about it.

I don't disagree with what you're saying but there are too many factors (like the many you mentioned above) involved for USASF to decide on a case by case basis let alone leave it up to coaches to figure this out. Again, I understand that this is a sensitive subject. Taking this into account, I still don't see any way to fairly allow a legally and biologically male athlete to compete on an all-girl team. Compete on a coed team as a female? Fine. But USASF, EP's and coaches can not decide for an athlete if and when they are eligible for an all girl team if they are not physically female. It's too subjective and complicated.

Please let me be clear that I'm not trying to offend anyone. This is my personal opinion on the situation and how I think it should and truly would be handled by USASF. I respect your opinion and am glad we have the boards to discuss serious issues such as this that affect our sport.

 

[cheercurl]

Males under going sex reassignment surgery under go estrogen therapy. It seems they lose there strength advantage??? Just not sure how long that would take. I also don't imagine anyone having that operation before the age of 18 or even 21. So that would mean you would have people who are in limbo of that transformation which would give a male to female advantage.

This is from wiki...I think?

What is the effect of estrogen on males?:​

Changes to the body include:

• Breast development
• Loss of erection
• Shrinkage of testicles
• Decreased acne
• Decreased facial and body hair
• Decreased muscle mass and strength
• Softer and smoother skin
• Slowing of balding
• Redistribution of fat from abdomen to hips, thighs, and buttocks

​

 

[redsmom]

Males under going sex reassignment surgery under go estrogen therapy. It seems they lose there strength advantage??? Just not sure how long that would take. I also don't imagine anyone having that operation before the age of 18 or even 21. So that would mean you would have people who are in limbo of that transformation which would give a male to female advantage.

This is from wiki...I think?


What is the effect of estrogen on males?:
Changes to the body include:

• Breast development
• Loss of erection
• Shrinkage of testicles
• Decreased acne
• Decreased facial and body hair
• Decreased muscle mass and strength
• Softer and smoother skin
• Slowing of balding
• Redistribution of fat from abdomen to hips, thighs, and buttocks

Growing number of teens getting sex-change treatments | syracuse.com

I just found this article published by the AP in February (this thread just got me very curious on the subject). While it sounds like surgery and irreversible measures are being delayed until age 16 or so, it is becoming common to use medical means to delay puberty in some of these youth.

Both college level and Olympic level sports are currently having to address this very real issue, it is probably just a matter of time before that trickles down to high school aged sports organizations. At least organizations like USASF will have the benefit of research etc... done at these higher levels.

 

[Ashley]

Males under going sex reassignment surgery under go estrogen therapy. It seems they lose there strength advantage??? Just not sure how long that would take. I also don't imagine anyone having that operation before the age of 18 or even 21. So that would mean you would have people who are in limbo of that transformation which would give a male to female advantage.

This is from wiki...I think?

What is the effect of estrogen on males?:​

Changes to the body include:

• Breast development
• Loss of erection
• Shrinkage of testicles
• Decreased acne
• Decreased facial and body hair
• Decreased muscle mass and strength
• Softer and smoother skin
• Slowing of balding
• Redistribution of fat from abdomen to hips, thighs, and buttocks

​

You don't have to have the surgery to take estrogen. Taking hormones is generally one of the first steps you'd take. One of the articles I found said that the NCAA recommends that if a MTF transgendered person has been taking hormones for a year that she should be able to compete on a women's team. At that point they've lost a lot of their strength. That's why I think USASF needs to institute a rule.

 

[fiercerando88]

Growing number of teens getting sex-change treatments | syracuse.com

I just found this article published by the AP in February (this thread just got me very curious on the subject). While it sounds like surgery and irreversible measures are being delayed until age 16 or so, it is becoming common to use medical means to delay puberty in some of these youth.

Both college level and Olympic level sports are currently having to address this very real issue, it is probably just a matter of time before that trickles down to high school aged sports organizations. At least organizations like USASF will have the benefit of research etc... done at these higher levels.

Really interesting that this was all brought up because I just found out it's the topic for my Current Issues in Sports class this week. Started doing some research, and the IOC (International Olympic Committee) actually put a policy in place in 2004 before the Athens Games. CNN.com - Transsexual athletes OK for Athens - May 18, 2004

This document about equal opportunity for transgender athletes also is very informative and has provided for quite the afternoon of reading! http://www.nclrights.org/site/DocServer/TransgenderStudentAthleteReport.pdf?docID=7901

I'll be curious to see if the USASF institutes a policy, and if so, what it will look like.

 

[Aussiekat]

More power to the kids who deal with this, and if they want to compete as male or female, then my teams will happily compete against them no questions asked. If the IOC and NCAA can put policies in place to deal with it, surely cheer (which is promoted as such an inclusive and accepting sport by its own members) can accomodate the few athletes who identify as a gender different than the legal sex on their birth certificate. This is a sport dominated by underage athletes (many who have not reached their physical peak), is it really worth creating another hostile space for these kids just because it might give a handful of teams across the country (and even fewer worlds teams) a slight competitive advantage?

As an aside, many transgendered individuals and organisations promote the use of "cis" gender as an alternate to male or female. Some individuals happily identify as both male AND female. After all, gender is a social construct; if we can make up "male" and "female" why not add "cis" as well. Society is changing and becoming more understanding and accepting of difference, it would be a shame if this community was so blinded by all girl and coed divisions that it couldn't do the same.

 

[BowsnBling]

I'm pretty sure that's not true - especially if we're talking post-op and years of hormone therapy. I'm not sure what the competitive advantage would be then. When you no longer have the levels of testosterone that makes do, you really don't have any advantage over women.

And generally when you refer to a transgendered person, you use the pronoun of the gender they identify with. There was an issue in MA with a MTF transgender inmate and it killed me that the newspapers would user her new name, but use the "he" pronoun. She is no longer a he and shouldn't be called as such. And again, keep in mind that sex and gender are two different things. While someone's sex may be male, their gender might be female.

We actually had a transgender athlete try out for our college (all-girl) team. It worked out that she didn't have the skills to make the team, but it would have been a very real issue.

I appreciate your comment about sex and gender so I looked it up online and found the following definition:

The words sex and gender are commonly used interchangeably, but many linguists would argue that their usage is quite distinct. Sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics, while gender refers to behaviors, roles, expectations, and activities in society.

Sex refers to male or female, while genderrefers to masculine or feminine.

So to me, even though some people (transgender or not ) may recognize gender as the main focus of what they are identifying with, it still is not recognized as a factual distinction until it can be made a fact by legal documentation.

I guess since I was raised by an attorney I was taught to question yet to see the facts and too me be it a sensitive subject or not I see it as fact or desire: you may desire to live and be viewed as one thing but in fact you are still legally another.

 

[PghxCheer2]

Didn't we have a very memorable discussion about whether 1 guy was considered coed before???? Long story short: It is. I can respect there are plenty of beast female athletes that are stronger than guys on coed teams. But for the most part, guys are stronger.

A person should compete as what their sex is on their birth certificate. The only exception to this would be if an athlete is fully partaking in hormone therapy, then they can be considered female. They would have to submit evidential proof that their hormone balances are similar to that of traditional female athletes. That is what will actually cause the physical changes/delays that would bring a transwoman to the physical standards of a natural born female. I'm sorry if it's embarrassing to compete as a male when you identify yourself as a female, but if you love the sport you would understand the inequitable gain your team would have by you being able to compete all girl or have extra males. For example, if the Duggars (19 kids & counting), who say it is against their religion to dance, decided to form a competitive cheerleading squad, you couldn't just go give them points for dance because they say it's against their religion. There is a point where unfair advantages and accommodating personal lifestyles/interests of certain athletes has to be controlled to maintain the integrity of the sport. If an athlete wanted to wear a female uniform, then I see no problem in allowing that, but they should still be registered as a coed squad if they are benefiting from the physical advantages of a male.

 

[cupieqt]

PghxCheer2 we did. I think it may have been in the 18+ section though. Not positive but I do remember the discussion.

 

[cupieqt]

Yes. Here it is. It's in the 18+ section so that's why some may not have seen it. http://fierceboard.com/index.php?threads/UCA-competed-a-drag-queen-this-weekend....7138/

 

[Callmeboots]

Some of the comments on that thread are making my blood boil. I think it's crazy how far we've come as a society with LGBT issues in just 2 years.

 

[Aussiekat]

Once upon a time, people thought being gay was a choice and you could catch AIDS from being friends with homosexuals. The amount of young gay people who commit suicide, are bullied, are ridiculed over their sexual "choice" and the public outpouring of support for them on the boards... and now this. How often does this board lament the existence of "cheerlebrities" and preach that one person doesn't make a team? Too many hypocrites. I don't care about your legal definitions, I don't care that you may lose to a team with one athlete who is struggling to reconcile their mind and their body. I don't care that one biological male who genuinely believes they are meant to be a woman is on an allgirl team. I care that a kid gets a chance to be a part of a community that values them for who they are and makes them feel like a human being when they may be ostracised in so many other areas of their life. There is no trophy, no award, no medal, banner or ring that is more important than that. And if you think otherwise, let me know and I'll make you a trophy out of plasticine and macaroni to replace the trophy you could have won if you didn't spend all your time worrying about the transgendered kid competing against you.

 

[Callmeboots]

Once upon a time, people thought being gay was a choice and you could catch AIDS from being friends with homosexuals. The amount of young gay people who commit suicide, are bullied, are ridiculed over their sexual "choice" and the public outpouring of support for them on the boards... and now this. How often does this board lament the existence of "cheerlebrities" and preach that one person doesn't make a team? Too many hypocrites. I don't care about your legal definitions, I don't care that you may lose to a team with one athlete who is struggling to reconcile their mind and their body. I don't care that one biological male who genuinely believes they are meant to be a woman is on an allgirl team. I care that a kid gets a chance to be a part of a community that values them for who they are and makes them feel like a human being when they may be ostracised in so many other areas of their life. There is no trophy, no award, no medal, banner or ring that is more important than that. And if you think otherwise, let me know and I'll make you a trophy out of plasticine and macaroni to replace the trophy you could have won if you didn't spend all your time worrying about the transgendered kid competing against you.