High School Tryout Results

[cheer25mom]

Goodness, are we still on this? Respectfully we just see this particular issue very differently. They can NAME you in a lawsuit... but unless you are found negligent or overtly discriminatory (I.E. outright discriminated against an individual based on gender, race, religion etc (which would be VERY difficult to prove and need explicit proof (because you are employed by the school) you personally can not be sued... also they must specify some sort of monetary loss for a case to even get a glance from a lawyer... so at most you’d lose your job) it would be next to impossible to prove that Susie suffered and “lost wages” or incurred any “monetary damages” (in fact, it’s likely a probable savings) due to not making a cheer squad...
and...Nope, I still wouldn’t care (this doesn’t mean I do not care about my job...)
Look at what’s going on with Hanover High right now and the coaches/school that IS caving to 1 parent & kid that didn’t make the team... they’re taking the heat... not the program or the coaches.
Their whole attempt to be “inclusive” and “protect the reputation” ... play the CYA game ... has blown up Nationaly.
Kid didn’t make the cheer squad they wanted to make her happy and put everyone on... now nobody wants on and everyone thinks Hanover was crazy to do so... zero principals learned from this. Lesson learned: hard work doesn’t pay and if I complain enough I too can get what I want and ruin it for everyone. Why even hold a tryout?!?!

In my state you absolutely CAN personally be sued for any "pain and suffering" Susie endured from being unjustly cut. Happened to a fellow teacher (not over cheer but a classroom incident), and the legal fees were tens of thousands.

No one is saying put everyone on a squad, far from it. I am just saying that it is to your benefit to have objective outside judges when you have to fight to maintain the integrity of your tryout. We DIDN'T cave to Susie's mom, and were able to stand our ground because we had scores to back the decision. We DON'T cave to parents. We don't have to because we have a fair tryout process that relys on the most objective scoring process we can get. If you don't have that, then you are going to face challenges that will be difficult to defend against. The reality of the situation is that lawsuits cost a LOT of money to defend against. School systems will usually cave if they think there is a chance the parent will actually sue. If you have concrete scores to show Susie's mom, that admin, and the lawyers, you can usually head that off and stand your ground. "We just didn't think she was a good fit for the team" doesn't really work and ends up with you taking everyone that protests.

 

[CheerItFullOut]

In my state you absolutely CAN personally be sued for any "pain and suffering" Susie endured from being unjustly cut. Happened to a fellow teacher (not over cheer but a classroom incident), and the legal fees were tens of thousands.

No one is saying put everyone on a squad, far from it. I am just saying that it is to your benefit to have objective outside judges when you have to fight to maintain the integrity of your tryout. We DIDN'T cave to Susie's mom, and were able to stand our ground because we had scores to back the decision. We DON'T cave to parents. We don't have to because we have a fair tryout process that relys on the most objective scoring process we can get. If you don't have that, then you are going to face challenges that will be difficult to defend against. The reality of the situation is that lawsuits cost a LOT of money to defend against. School systems will usually cave if they think there is a chance the parent will actually sue. If you have concrete scores to show Susie's mom, that admin, and the lawyers, you can usually head that off and stand your ground. "We just didn't think she was a good fit for the team" doesn't really work and ends up with you taking everyone that protests.

In the famous words of a very famous Disney Princess: Let it Go

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Let me clarify. I know WHAT it is, I just do not know how it works in a school/coaching sense.

Ex: Are schools in CA required to field a STUNT team in addition to their other teams?

Do you in theory now have JV/Varsity Comp, JV/Varsity Sideline, JV/Varsity STUNT?

How do you handle tryouts for all of these different teams? Do you have say, Comp double as STUNT like some colleges do?

How does it affect your workload/kid burnout/pay? Ex: I'd expect additional stipend monies. Are you compensated additionally for coaching STUNT?

 

[CheerItFullOut]

Let me clarify. I know WHAT it is, I just do not know how it works in a school/coaching sense.

Ex: Are schools in CA required to field a STUNT team in addition to their other teams?

Do you in theory now have JV/Varsity Comp, JV/Varsity Sideline, JV/Varsity STUNT?

How do you handle tryouts for all of these different teams? Do you have say, Comp double as STUNT like some colleges do?

How does it affect your workload/kid burnout/pay? Ex: I'd expect additional stipend monies. Are you compensated additionally for coaching STUNT?

That’s the issue... because cheer just became a sport in CA... California doesn’t know what Stunt the Sport is Vs regular cheer vs Comp Cheer... so they’re kinda just throwing it all at us at once.
So some districts are forcing Stunt the Sport in where some programs just are not ready to replace or offset “competition cheer and even some sideline cheer programs” some schools are taking on everything at a very high level and kids are doing “everything they CAN” which creates a very high workload for some kids/ program leaders because it IS ALL of the squads you listed.
CA has regulations on hours of contact per week and traditional competition season ends feb/March with stunt the sport starting in March... this gives you a very short time to transition seasons and effectively manage your “play book material” should you have kids who participate in both if you are not an intermediate or more proficient level squad.
Picture trying to teach your kids 5-12 mini 30 sec choreographed routines off of your computer in about 2-3 weeks right after finishing your competition season all while trying to finish cheering for your basketball season & after finishing football playoffs and trying to fit everything within 17hrs of maximum contact ...(you’re going to have to tell some kids they have to pick one thing and not another even though they are technically “different seasons” and they’re “allowed” to do all of them...
.... that or the kids do everything... and it can get a bit messy with scheduling and cheer fatigue ... some schools I observed... had a few kids quit cheer all together stating that stunt the sport pretty much “blew their cheer flame out”- it was too much.
(But I believe that is dependent on how programs handle the transition not stunt the sport itself)
I just hired 4 new coaches... we are talking about adding Stunt, I’m 100% in support for college Stunt the Sport (title 9) and I think having it in HS is good preparation.... if you run things organized and have your kids limit squad activity...implementing things like mandatory season breaks, Squad season limits ... it can be a great thing... as long as traditional sideline stays the same, and traditional competition doesn’t change... I’m fine with it... but there does need to be some more education on its introduction

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

In my state you absolutely CAN personally be sued for any "pain and suffering" Susie endured from being unjustly cut. Happened to a fellow teacher (not over cheer but a classroom incident), and the legal fees were tens of thousands.

No one is saying put everyone on a squad, far from it. I am just saying that it is to your benefit to have objective outside judges when you have to fight to maintain the integrity of your tryout. We DIDN'T cave to Susie's mom, and were able to stand our ground because we had scores to back the decision. We DON'T cave to parents. We don't have to because we have a fair tryout process that relys on the most objective scoring process we can get. If you don't have that, then you are going to face challenges that will be difficult to defend against. The reality of the situation is that lawsuits cost a LOT of money to defend against. School systems will usually cave if they think there is a chance the parent will actually sue. If you have concrete scores to show Susie's mom, that admin, and the lawyers, you can usually head that off and stand your ground. "We just didn't think she was a good fit for the team" doesn't really work and ends up with you taking everyone that protests.

Do you have a link to these alleged lawsuits that are so prevalent for which tryout judges provide such great defense?

I have some colleagues who are legal nurse consultants and charge attorneys $150/hr to review medical records, review standards of care, and prepare expert testimony in malpractice suits.

If these cheer lawsuits are so prevalent that outside judges have now become a necessity then I think we should expand the practice. I will be going into business soon as legal sports consulting, LLC. Obviously, eventually every sport in the country will be requiring outside judges to judge their tryouts due to the outright terror the coaches and administration face over the thought of turning away someone’s child. I think I’ll get in on the ground floor at $75 an hour for now. I’ll be developing a legal cheer consulting course all coaches can take for the bargain price of $3000 and then they will receive a certification allowing them to practice legal cheer consulting themselves. Eventually I shall develop a program by which we have tryout judges and then practice judges too. We are going to force people to hire independent, unbiased, panels to sit in on every practice so they can testify to the fact that the practice itself was conducted in only the most fair and equal manner and that no child was told that they were doing anything incorrectly.

Who’s in?

 

[tojofasho]

This whole conversation is just :deadhorse:

Guys, you do tryouts differently, it's fine and nobody is right OR wrong. Most likely you work in completely different situations, and odds are you work in completely different states as well, which means you have no idea what the other's situation is. What works at one of your schools may not work for the other. If I tried to run tryouts at my teeny tiny high school in the middle of nowhere AZ the same way as a UCA National Champion school, there's no way it would work. Period.

I get it from the perspective of outside judges and why they're awesome and also terrible; I work in a school and yes, I am forced to use outside judges because a parent threatened to sue in the past (our school hears lawsuit and it's like the floodgates open, they'll do anything to avoid even the threat of one). No lawsuit ever actually came, and if a parent actually tried to sue the school, I don't think they would get very far. But still, schools know the PR nightmare a parent can reign down on them even if they don't sue, and most districts don't care enough to take that kind of heat for cheerleading. It happens.

I think everyone needs to just calm down and try and figure out why you keep replying to each other and what the end goal is here. Because the truth is that at this point neither of you is arguing to try and change the other's opinion (it is clear you are both dead set in your ways, which again, is perfectly acceptable and I'm sure it works for you), but rather you're doing it simply to prove you're more right than the other person. Just agree to disagree and, as @CheerItFullOut so eloquently stated and made up on her own (definitely not stolen from a Disney princess), Let It Go.

Also, back to the original point of this thread, I always post the numbers on the social media pages the night of tryouts, but this is the first year I didn't split JV/Varsity at tryouts, and am instead waiting until the end of summer. Any recommendations on a cool and not heartbreaking way to tell kids which team they end up on in two months? There's only going to be like maybe fourteen of them to split so I anticipate a very small JV team and am unsure how to approach that sort of cutoff since I've never dealt with this before (I'm at a new school that had no established program, eek!). All help will receive shimmys of love!

 

[cheer25mom]

This whole conversation is just :deadhorse:

Guys, you do tryouts differently, it's fine and nobody is right OR wrong. Most likely you work in completely different situations, and odds are you work in completely different states as well, which means you have no idea what the other's situation is. What works at one of your schools may not work for the other. If I tried to run tryouts at my teeny tiny high school in the middle of nowhere AZ the same way as a UCA National Champion school, there's no way it would work. Period.

I get it from the perspective of outside judges and why they're awesome and also terrible; I work in a school and yes, I am forced to use outside judges because a parent threatened to sue in the past (our school hears lawsuit and it's like the floodgates open, they'll do anything to avoid even the threat of one). No lawsuit ever actually came, and if a parent actually tried to sue the school, I don't think they would get very far. But still, schools know the PR nightmare a parent can reign down on them even if they don't sue, and most districts don't care enough to take that kind of heat for cheerleading. It happens.

I think everyone needs to just calm down and try and figure out why you keep replying to each other and what the end goal is here. Because the truth is that at this point neither of you is arguing to try and change the other's opinion (it is clear you are both dead set in your ways, which again, is perfectly acceptable and I'm sure it works for you), but rather you're doing it simply to prove you're more right than the other person. Just agree to disagree and, as @CheerItFullOut so eloquently stated and made up on her own (definitely not stolen from a Disney princess), Let It Go.

Also, back to the original point of this thread, I always post the numbers on the social media pages the night of tryouts, but this is the first year I didn't split JV/Varsity at tryouts, and am instead waiting until the end of summer. Any recommendations on a cool and not heartbreaking way to tell kids which team they end up on in two months? There's only going to be like maybe fourteen of them to split so I anticipate a very small JV team and am unsure how to approach that sort of cutoff since I've never dealt with this before (I'm at a new school that had no established program, eek!). All help will receive shimmys of love!

Yes, my point is just the threat of a lawsuit tends to make admins cave. If I can prevent that, I am going to.

My whole point wasn’t to convince anyone I am right, just that Those of us who choose to use outside judges have valid reasons for doing so and are not not stupid, unethical, lazy, or unwilling to stand up for my program or any of the other things coaches who use outside judges have been called.

Everyone does things differently, and that’s ok, but it ISNT ok or productive to trash coaches who do it differently than you.

What about separate team bonding activities? Pool parties, bowling, laser tag are all good outings. Their invites by email could be their notification?

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[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

This whole conversation is just :deadhorse:

Guys, you do tryouts differently, it's fine and nobody is right OR wrong. Most likely you work in completely different situations, and odds are you work in completely different states as well, which means you have no idea what the other's situation is. What works at one of your schools may not work for the other. If I tried to run tryouts at my teeny tiny high school in the middle of nowhere AZ the same way as a UCA National Champion school, there's no way it would work. Period.

I get it from the perspective of outside judges and why they're awesome and also terrible; I work in a school and yes, I am forced to use outside judges because a parent threatened to sue in the past (our school hears lawsuit and it's like the floodgates open, they'll do anything to avoid even the threat of one). No lawsuit ever actually came, and if a parent actually tried to sue the school, I don't think they would get very far. But still, schools know the PR nightmare a parent can reign down on them even if they don't sue, and most districts don't care enough to take that kind of heat for cheerleading. It happens.

I think everyone needs to just calm down and try and figure out why you keep replying to each other and what the end goal is here. Because the truth is that at this point neither of you is arguing to try and change the other's opinion (it is clear you are both dead set in your ways, which again, is perfectly acceptable and I'm sure it works for you), but rather you're doing it simply to prove you're more right than the other person. Just agree to disagree and, as @CheerItFullOut so eloquently stated and made up on her own (definitely not stolen from a Disney princess), Let It Go.

Also, back to the original point of this thread, I always post the numbers on the social media pages the night of tryouts, but this is the first year I didn't split JV/Varsity at tryouts, and am instead waiting until the end of summer. Any recommendations on a cool and not heartbreaking way to tell kids which team they end up on in two months? There's only going to be like maybe fourteen of them to split so I anticipate a very small JV team and am unsure how to approach that sort of cutoff since I've never dealt with this before (I'm at a new school that had no established program, eek!). All help will receive shimmys of love!

Lost interest in the debate itself about three days ago. Keep replying because work has had me in a “poke the bear” mindset. All I’ve dealt with all week were idiot drunks.

Now to your question.

My first piece of advice would be to start NOW talking to each individual cheerleader about your specific criteria for JV and Varsity, and how they fall into the mix. Leave the meeting with a clear message of “if you want Varsity, you have to keep doing this, start doing that, and/or achieve this skill.” As the months go on, regular reminders to the ones who do not appear to be taking the steps necessary to achieve their placement goal are always helpful as well. “Remember, we talked about your poor attendance? You’re averaging 2 missed practices and a tardy every week. At this rate, Varsity isn’t going to happen.”

Then, on judgement day, pull the individuals are going to JV in and let them know first. If you’re particularly worried about backlash, maybe have an assistant with you, but I don’t usually find it to be necessary. After all the JV’ers know, you can either tell the varsity kids individually, or pull the whole bunch together and announce the varsity team.

On a side note:

I always challenge the necessity in cheerleading of having or labeling teams JV and Varsity. JV can have such a connotation to it. Is the criteria tumbling? Why not Traditional Varsity and Non-tumbling Varsity? Is the criteria more vague? Why not small Varsity and medium Varsity? There’s so many options for competition divisions out there that you can be infinitely creative with your division and team name. That’s just a thought, and God knows the typical cheer program has enough varsity football and basketball games on its schedule to split them among two teams.

ETA: I missed the parenthetical portion of your question. Since it’s a new school for you and an unestablished program, is it even NECESSARY to split JV and Varsity? Could you approach the AD about other options? Maybe you go another year or two without a JV team, and then establish JV as your team gets larger.

 

[cheer25mom]

Here JV cheers for JV sports, Varsity cheers for Varsity sports. They often shift or combine for competition.


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[CheerItFullOut]

This whole conversation is just :deadhorse:

Guys, you do tryouts differently, it's fine and nobody is right OR wrong. Most likely you work in completely different situations, and odds are you work in completely different states as well, which means you have no idea what the other's situation is. What works at one of your schools may not work for the other. If I tried to run tryouts at my teeny tiny high school in the middle of nowhere AZ the same way as a UCA National Champion school, there's no way it would work. Period.

I get it from the perspective of outside judges and why they're awesome and also terrible; I work in a school and yes, I am forced to use outside judges because a parent threatened to sue in the past (our school hears lawsuit and it's like the floodgates open, they'll do anything to avoid even the threat of one). No lawsuit ever actually came, and if a parent actually tried to sue the school, I don't think they would get very far. But still, schools know the PR nightmare a parent can reign down on them even if they don't sue, and most districts don't care enough to take that kind of heat for cheerleading. It happens.

I think everyone needs to just calm down and try and figure out why you keep replying to each other and what the end goal is here. Because the truth is that at this point neither of you is arguing to try and change the other's opinion (it is clear you are both dead set in your ways, which again, is perfectly acceptable and I'm sure it works for you), but rather you're doing it simply to prove you're more right than the other person. Just agree to disagree and, as @CheerItFullOut so eloquently stated and made up on her own (definitely not stolen from a Disney princess), Let It Go.

Also, back to the original point of this thread, I always post the numbers on the social media pages the night of tryouts, but this is the first year I didn't split JV/Varsity at tryouts, and am instead waiting until the end of summer. Any recommendations on a cool and not heartbreaking way to tell kids which team they end up on in two months? There's only going to be like maybe fourteen of them to split so I anticipate a very small JV team and am unsure how to approach that sort of cutoff since I've never dealt with this before (I'm at a new school that had no established program, eek!). All help will receive shimmys of love!

This whole conversation is just :deadhorse:

Guys, you do tryouts differently, it's fine and nobody is right OR wrong. Most likely you work in completely different situations, and odds are you work in completely different states as well, which means you have no idea what the other's situation is. What works at one of your schools may not work for the other. If I tried to run tryouts at my teeny tiny high school in the middle of nowhere AZ the same way as a UCA National Champion school, there's no way it would work. Period.

I get it from the perspective of outside judges and why they're awesome and also terrible; I work in a school and yes, I am forced to use outside judges because a parent threatened to sue in the past (our school hears lawsuit and it's like the floodgates open, they'll do anything to avoid even the threat of one). No lawsuit ever actually came, and if a parent actually tried to sue the school, I don't think they would get very far. But still, schools know the PR nightmare a parent can reign down on them even if they don't sue, and most districts don't care enough to take that kind of heat for cheerleading. It happens.

I think everyone needs to just calm down and try and figure out why you keep replying to each other and what the end goal is here. Because the truth is that at this point neither of you is arguing to try and change the other's opinion (it is clear you are both dead set in your ways, which again, is perfectly acceptable and I'm sure it works for you), but rather you're doing it simply to prove you're more right than the other person. Just agree to disagree and, as @CheerItFullOut so eloquently stated and made up on her own (definitely not stolen from a Disney princess), Let It Go.

Also, back to the original point of this thread, I always post the numbers on the social media pages the night of tryouts, but this is the first year I didn't split JV/Varsity at tryouts, and am instead waiting until the end of summer. Any recommendations on a cool and not heartbreaking way to tell kids which team they end up on in two months? There's only going to be like maybe fourteen of them to split so I anticipate a very small JV team and am unsure how to approach that sort of cutoff since I've never dealt with this before (I'm at a new school that had no established program, eek!). All help will receive shimmys of love!

You had no idea how bad I wanted to add an Elsa gif in all its singing glory but thought that would just be rude and slightly over dramatic - ;):(

Good luck at your new school! - working with a fresh program is exciting. I think it’s wise that you’re waiting the summer out to see how they progress before you make your split of JV/V

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

As to the JV/Varsity "stigma" - it just kind of, is what it is.

JV= sideline only and cheers for JV sports.
V = competes and cheers V sports.

We tried not to stigmatize JV but the skills are different, the tryout is different, etc. We've combined in the past for things like Homecoming or when administration experimented with having cheerleaders present at non-traditional cheer activities (ex: volleyball, soccer, etc.)

I'll tell you I've always been passionate about not limiting teams by grade. Ex: if that freshman is good enough, she should not arbitrarily be placed on your noncompete JV or whatever because she's in 9th grade.

Disclaimer: I DO understand that sometimes your hands are tied by policy (in certain states where they have freshman only sports, I'm pretty sure that freshman HAVE to be placed on freshman teams.) So you do what is required of you of course.

 

[Sterling von Shimmer]

Do you have a link to these alleged lawsuits that are so prevalent for which tryout judges provide such great defense?

I have some colleagues who are legal nurse consultants and charge attorneys $150/hr to review medical records, review standards of care, and prepare expert testimony in malpractice suits.

If these cheer lawsuits are so prevalent that outside judges have now become a necessity then I think we should expand the practice. I will be going into business soon as legal sports consulting, LLC. Obviously, eventually every sport in the country will be requiring outside judges to judge their tryouts due to the outright terror the coaches and administration face over the thought of turning away someone’s child. I think I’ll get in on the ground floor at $75 an hour for now. I’ll be developing a legal cheer consulting course all coaches can take for the bargain price of $3000 and then they will receive a certification allowing them to practice legal cheer consulting themselves. Eventually I shall develop a program by which we have tryout judges and then practice judges too. We are going to force people to hire independent, unbiased, panels to sit in on every practice so they can testify to the fact that the practice itself was conducted in only the most fair and equal manner and that no child was told that they were doing anything incorrectly.

Who’s in?

Just google cheer lawsuits. They’re everywhere.

cheer lawsuits kids cut from team - Google Search

Personally I think it has to do with a wild sense of entitlement on the part of the kids and parents that I’m seeing more and more of each year. Words have no meaning and tryouts are worthless if you complain hard enough.

 

[Sterling von Shimmer]

As to the JV/Varsity "stigma" - it just kind of, is what it is.

JV= sideline only and cheers for JV sports.
V = competes and cheers V sports.

We tried not to stigmatize JV but the skills are different, the tryout is different, etc. We've combined in the past for things like Homecoming or when administration experimented with having cheerleaders present at non-traditional cheer activities (ex: volleyball, soccer, etc.)

I'll tell you I've always been passionate about not limiting teams by grade. Ex: if that freshman is good enough, she should not arbitrarily be placed on your noncompete JV or whatever because she's in 9th grade.

Disclaimer: I DO understand that sometimes your hands are tied by policy (in certain states where they have freshman only sports, I'm pretty sure that freshman HAVE to be placed on freshman teams.) So you do what is required of you of course.

I try to stress that both teams are valued, but Varsity is offered different incentives for the additional practice hours they put in. Both JV and Varsity compete in advanced at USA, but only Varsity goes to UCA (and honestly I wouldn’t take JV to UCA anyway until they fix that loophole that allows programs to stack their JV teams and con their way into a white jacket...ANY white jacket).

That being said, both teams are exclusive in their own way. Varsity is open to all ages, but we cap off at 30 (UCA max). JV caps off at 36 (USA max), but is only available to underclassmen so as to incentivise girls to get their skills instead of treading water on JV for four years (some will go to great lengths to avoid Varsity morning practices while still getting to wear the skirt).

I really try to foster an environment of positivity in the program, especially among the Varsity girls. I tell them to support JV because eventually those JV girls are the ones that are going to help them win their next Nationals title...or not. So they’d better HOPE that JV is as successful as they are.

So far it’s worked pretty well. Sometimes you’ll get a parent or kid with a chip on their shoulder. But most of the time the girls understand why they’re on the team they’re on and how the decision was made.

 

[mncheerqueen]

We are in a bit different situation with our JV and Varsity compared to a lot of programs. Our comp and sideline are seperate so we don't have a JV sideline squad.
Our JV is extremely competitive (with top three finishes at UCA, most people thinking they are a varsity, etc) and is a true JV with girls usually underclassmen or under. They often do the same/similar skills as our Varsity. The real difference between our teams is the tumbling requirement (handspring for JV and tuck for Varsity). Our Varsity is still viewed as a prestige to the young girls though so having our JV girls have a drive instilled from them earlier on really works wonders!

 

[cheer25mom]

As to the JV/Varsity "stigma" - it just kind of, is what it is.

JV= sideline only and cheers for JV sports.
V = competes and cheers V sports.

We tried not to stigmatize JV but the skills are different, the tryout is different, etc. We've combined in the past for things like Homecoming or when administration experimented with having cheerleaders present at non-traditional cheer activities (ex: volleyball, soccer, etc.)

I'll tell you I've always been passionate about not limiting teams by grade. Ex: if that freshman is good enough, she should not arbitrarily be placed on your noncompete JV or whatever because she's in 9th grade.

Disclaimer: I DO understand that sometimes your hands are tied by policy (in certain states where they have freshman only sports, I'm pretty sure that freshman HAVE to be placed on freshman teams.) So you do what is required of you of course.

This is the first year we have placed by skill and not by age. There was some blowback about it, but I think ultimately it is for the good of the program. We instituted minimum skill requirements for varsity, and are heading that way for JV.


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