High School Tryout Results

[cheer25mom]

I feel like it needs to be said.

Do whatever works for you. Everyone using outside judges is not inherently or automatically being unfair/shady. I used them previously because I was asked to. I changed it up because I wanted more input (fyi: I do not make ultimate decision, my kids are still scored on a rubric, and my other coaches score independently from me) but I don't ever want to make people feel wrong for doing it. If you feel like a panel is best for you/your kids/etc. do it.

There is a fine line between helping people to improve practices and accusing them of being shady or unfair, btw.

You are 100% correct. No one way of doing things works for everyone. Sorry if I made it seem otherwise.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

You are 100% correct. No one way of doing things works for everyone. Sorry if I made it seem otherwise.

No this was actually in SUPPORT of you.

We are just sharing so there is no need for folks to make people who use outside judges feel incompetent.

Do what works for your kids and your program. You are the boss.

 

[CheerItFullOut]

Why am I so adamant about this?

Because I get sick and tired of hearing people whine and complain about how cheerleading doesn’t get any respect in their school, about how cheerleaders are valued like other athletes, and how cheerleading should be considered a sport...and then turn around and make all these lame booty excuses about how because it’s cheerleading we have to do things differently than all the other sports and athletes who are valued as respected do things. You can’t have it both ways. You either want respect and are willing to do the things that the respected groups do, or you don’t care enough to change the outdated, archaic traditions that exist in our activity and bring us into the 21st century.

If it happens, so be it. I’ve seen enough out of the administration in all of the sports and have had talks with them about potential problems which have never come to fruition to know that I have support in the school.

ETA: in the time since I brought my “tryout philosophy” to this area, it’s made such a change in the amount of drama at my school that the coach at our other district high school was told they had to get rid of their judges. Then, whether cause and effect or just out of coincidence, our city School rival was forced to do the same thing.

I do get what you are saying here...and I agree.
We often SAY we want cheer to be treated differently but then treat it the same, want respect but then don’t give it the respect it deserves.
As for your “accusation” of shady behavior... I didn’t really see you state that anyone specific was shady... you were just making a generalization... I don’t think “shady” or dishonest is the right term but perhaps that ultimately coaches WERE the ones that “HAD the final say” and I would tend to agree they do... even if the coaches aren’t overtly judging if they a part of the scoring process in any way, or picking the judges they have an effect on the scores... it’s not bias free...(this is just me being honest in theory) no matter how much we want it to be....so (forgive me if I’m wrong but what I believe KY coach is perhaps not communicating effectively) is why not just cut through all the BS and just pick your kids and stop facilitating this whole I’m afraid of mommy and princess throwing a “This was fixed fit” and simply state... I AM (along with MY qualified staff) the qualified judging panel.
Overtly state: My “favorites” are the kids who show up on time, are coachable, get good grades and don’t give me discipline issues through the year.... if you are new and if you all can adhere to that you’ve got a clean slate and great head start for tryouts. There’s your “politics.”
I believe it’s taking the fear out of what parents and kids say...there’s too much fear. Coach without fear.
While I value my job dearly, I don’t allow the climate of the kids/parents to dictate me and my decisions and have zero fear of loosing it. If I’m truly doing was best for the group as a whole and what’s in the best interest of the school... I’m governed by my moral compas not Susie’s feelings.
We are very transparent too, hire outside judges, show scores, provide feedback, I don’t even sit Near judges, scores are input electronically and kids are given deductions by lower GPA ranges, demerit ranges from previous seasons and deductions based on technique (like comp scoring) (-1 not rolling jumps out on jumps, -1 not pointing toes, -1 bad grips, -1 not smiling, -1 not projecting cheer)
And parents STILL THINK stuff goes down... and what’s funny is I have more PARENTS try to pull shadey stuff like ASK me to bump their kid on anyway?!?! UGH- NO

There will always be something to argue about, but I get the point in perception won’t change unless you make a serious change to change the perception.

 

[ErinS]

I’m a fan of a combination of outside judges and coaches evaluation.


My former high school and Niece’s current school has lost a couple of coaches over the year due to try out discrepancy with no documentation to support claims either way...and in each case it resulted in all girls making varsity and the coach resigning or being asked to step down

In both instances is was an issue related to diversity... perceived implicit and/or explicit bias. (I knew the coaches personally and I don’t feel that either of them deliberately set up the squad the way it was argued they did)

They make sure to hire a diverse judging panel now.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sterling von Shimmer]

Sorry, but you are just wrong on this. It will happen, no matter HOW you do tryouts, and when you don't have scores, you don't have a leg to stand on. I don't get why you are so militant about this? Its getting ridiculous and tiring to have you continually trashing other coaches who don't choose to do things exactly like you. I feel like our tryouts ARE transparent. We have a parent preview night where parents see everyone perform the material they will do at tryouts the next day. Any parent who asks to see their child's scores and judges comments can. I feel like having you and only you making tryout decisions is ASKING for someone to complain, and when they do you are hung out to dry.

POPCORN GIF (that I can’t load).

 

[Sterling von Shimmer]

Outside judges are a coaches’ way of copping out when people don’t agree with tryout results. Coaches should choose their own team and have a big enough sack to own up to and stand behind their decisions. How many basketball teams have outside judges for tryouts?

Nah.

I was going to more thoroughly but everyone else has already done it for me.

 

[XTREMElyfierce]

Not going to quote how many people I wanted to.

Although I stated coaches have the final say it comes with some backing. We hold on to our scoresheets and can discuss with our AD if needed. When I say we have the final say, as an example, after discussion with our AD we decide how many athletes we will be taking. Would we take all the girls/boys (over 100) that tryout? NO. We don’t disregard our scoring process because we like Sally more than Susie we simply pick our team based on score. Would I take an athlete that scores a 50 out of 100 over an athlete that scores a 95 out of 100 whether I “like them” or not no and i wouldn’t expect you to either.

And for you to imply that the way some of these coaches, including myself, are shady because of our tryout process is complete blasphemy is quite degrading. Not sure if you completely meant it in that way but to be honest I have respect for you because I see you post quite frequently and what you post 98% of the time I agree.

I am 100% confident in the ability of how myself and other coach coaches. While yes there may be issues with parents and/or athletes along the way we are lucky enough to have the support of our AD and the process we pick.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Not going to quote how many people I wanted to.

Although I stated coaches have the final say it comes with some backing. We hold on to our scoresheets and can discuss with our AD if needed. When I say we have the final say, as an example, after discussion with our AD we decide how many athletes we will be taking. Would we take all the girls/boys (over 100) that tryout? NO. We don’t disregard our scoring process because we like Sally more than Susie we simply pick our team based on score. Would I take an athlete that scores a 50 out of 100 over an athlete that scores a 95 out of 100 whether I “like them” or not no and i wouldn’t expect you to either.

And for you to imply that the way some of these coaches, including myself, are shady because of our tryout process is complete blasphemy is quite degrading. Not sure if you completely meant it in that way but to be honest I have respect for you because I see you post quite frequently and what you post 98% of the time I agree.

I am 100% confident in the ability of how myself and other coach coaches. While yes there may be issues with parents and/or athletes along the way we are lucky enough to have the support of our AD and the process we pick.

My intent was never to accuse any individual of any wrong doing. My intent was to foster thought on, “is this really the best way?” I meet similar resistance in my “day” job because I am constantly pushing the envelope against policies and procedures, going against the grain, and refusing to believe that a certain way is better just because that’s how it’s always been done. My coworkers often come back at me like they’ve been attacked as well, when I’m not attacking them personally, but attacking the process. I’ve changed many processes by which we do things both in my career and in coaching at our school because I see a problem, get down to the root of it, and create an intervention that makes it go away.

Cheerleading is chock full of traditions where it has allowed itself to fall dreadfully behind the times, ESPECIALLY at the high school level. Some examples:

The idea of outside judges is an archaic holdover from when we went to that style to justify getting away from having the student body vote on the team in a popularity contest.

How many of you routinely do strength training with your team? Not calisthenics, but actual Olympic lifting and strength training? We should be doing this for our athletes.

How many of you still use conditioning as a form of punishment? I’ve posted about this several times on the board. Doing so gets you about 60% effort on the conditioning part. I can guarantee if you will cut that out and make them see how conditioning will benefit their performance your effort level will instantly go up to about 90% on a daily basis, and will occasionally climb to 100%.

How many of you still start practice with a series of static stretches (“sit, straddle out, stretch to the right and hold for a count of thirty”)? Research shows that static stretching is a poor way to warm up, and stretching cold muscles increases the risk of injury. Static stretching should be done in the middle or end of practice when the body is warm and at its most limber.

How many of you loved your coach in high school and just continue to coach the way they coached you for no other reason than because it’s really all you know? This isn’t necessarily wrong, but here’s a big difference between the desk of every cheer coach with which I’m familiar and every sport coach that I know personally. A cheer coaches’ desk is often full of formation ideas, fundraising forms, uniform and T-shirt designs, chant/cheer material, and pep rally plans. A sport coach’s desk will have a book or two about the sport itself, maybe a third one that’s a drill book, and then a slew of other books from great coaches, motivators, and books about coaching processes, teaching the game, getting the most out of your players, etc. Great coaches spend as much time learning about coaching as they do studying their particular game.

I’ve had some successes and some familiars, but I refuse to just maintain the status quo “just because.”

 

[ScottyB]

How many of you loved your coach in high school and just continue to coach the way they coached you for no other reason than because it’s really all you know? This isn’t necessarily wrong, but here’s a big difference between the desk of every cheer coach with which I’m familiar and every sport coach that I know personally. A cheer coaches’ desk is often full of formation ideas, fundraising forms, uniform and T-shirt designs, chant/cheer material, and pep rally plans. A sport coach’s desk will have a book or two about the sport itself, maybe a third one that’s a drill book, and then a slew of other books from great coaches, motivators, and books about coaching processes, teaching the game, getting the most out of your players, etc. Great coaches spend as much time learning about coaching as they do studying their particular game.

Cheerleading in general needs this hard to swallow pill in the worst way.

 

[XTREMElyfierce]

My intent was never to accuse any individual of any wrong doing. My intent was to foster thought on, “is this really the best way?” I meet similar resistance in my “day” job because I am constantly pushing the envelope against policies and procedures, going against the grain, and refusing to believe that a certain way is better just because that’s how it’s always been done. My coworkers often come back at me like they’ve been attacked as well, when I’m not attacking them personally, but attacking the process. I’ve changed many processes by which we do things both in my career and in coaching at our school because I see a problem, get down to the root of it, and create an intervention that makes it go away.

Cheerleading is chock full of traditions where it has allowed itself to fall dreadfully behind the times, ESPECIALLY at the high school level. Some examples:

The idea of outside judges is an archaic holdover from when we went to that style to justify getting away from having the student body vote on the team in a popularity contest.

How many of you routinely do strength training with your team? Not calisthenics, but actual Olympic lifting and strength training? We should be doing this for our athletes.

How many of you still use conditioning as a form of punishment? I’ve posted about this several times on the board. Doing so gets you about 60% effort on the conditioning part. I can guarantee if you will cut that out and make them see how conditioning will benefit their performance your effort level will instantly go up to about 90% on a daily basis, and will occasionally climb to 100%.

How many of you still start practice with a series of static stretches (“sit, straddle out, stretch to the right and hold for a count of thirty”)? Research shows that static stretching is a poor way to warm up, and stretching cold muscles increases the risk of injury. Static stretching should be done in the middle or end of practice when the body is warm and at its most limber.

How many of you loved your coach in high school and just continue to coach the way they coached you for no other reason than because it’s really all you know? This isn’t necessarily wrong, but here’s a big difference between the desk of every cheer coach with which I’m familiar and every sport coach that I know personally. A cheer coaches’ desk is often full of formation ideas, fundraising forms, uniform and T-shirt designs, chant/cheer material, and pep rally plans. A sport coach’s desk will have a book or two about the sport itself, maybe a third one that’s a drill book, and then a slew of other books from great coaches, motivators, and books about coaching processes, teaching the game, getting the most out of your players, etc. Great coaches spend as much time learning about coaching as they do studying their particular game.

I’ve had some successes and some familiars, but I refuse to just maintain the status quo “just because.”

Thank you for your detailed response. Definitely had blurred lines from your original post. I agree with you 100% on all that you stated. It is hard to break the “norm” and familiarity but for the most part I don’t coach the way my high school coached me for the exact reasons you stated above.

Also could you send me some information on the “conditioning as punishment” part. We don’t use conditioning as punishment but as you know with high schoolers it can be hard to teach them that conditioning is beneficial rather than punishment. Just looking for persepctive on this

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Thank you for your detailed response. Definitely had blurred lines from your original post. I agree with you 100% on all that you stated. It is hard to break the “norm” and familiarity but for the most part I don’t coach the way my high school coached me for the exact reasons you stated above.

Also could you send me some information on the “conditioning as punishment” part. We don’t use conditioning as punishment but as you know with high schoolers it can be hard to teach them that conditioning is beneficial rather than punishment. Just looking for persepctive on this

Will send you a list of resources that I have purchased and owned personally later this evening.

 

[Sterling von Shimmer]

Thank you for your detailed response. Definitely had blurred lines from your original post. I agree with you 100% on all that you stated. It is hard to break the “norm” and familiarity but for the most part I don’t coach the way my high school coached me for the exact reasons you stated above.

Also could you send me some information on the “conditioning as punishment” part. We don’t use conditioning as punishment but as you know with high schoolers it can be hard to teach them that conditioning is beneficial rather than punishment. Just looking for persepctive on this

The gist is you’re not supposed to condition as punishment because then you’re setting them up to look at exercise as a negative for the rest of their lives. Much better to promote exercise for the reward that it is and all it can bring them: cardiovascular health, longer lifespan, National titles, great prom bod, whatever they respond to.

 

[Sterling von Shimmer]

My intent was never to accuse any individual of any wrong doing. My intent was to foster thought on, “is this really the best way?” I meet similar resistance in my “day” job because I am constantly pushing the envelope against policies and procedures, going against the grain, and refusing to believe that a certain way is better just because that’s how it’s always been done. My coworkers often come back at me like they’ve been attacked as well, when I’m not attacking them personally, but attacking the process. I’ve changed many processes by which we do things both in my career and in coaching at our school because I see a problem, get down to the root of it, and create an intervention that makes it go away.

Cheerleading is chock full of traditions where it has allowed itself to fall dreadfully behind the times, ESPECIALLY at the high school level. Some examples:

The idea of outside judges is an archaic holdover from when we went to that style to justify getting away from having the student body vote on the team in a popularity contest.

How many of you routinely do strength training with your team? Not calisthenics, but actual Olympic lifting and strength training? We should be doing this for our athletes.

How many of you still use conditioning as a form of punishment? I’ve posted about this several times on the board. Doing so gets you about 60% effort on the conditioning part. I can guarantee if you will cut that out and make them see how conditioning will benefit their performance your effort level will instantly go up to about 90% on a daily basis, and will occasionally climb to 100%.

How many of you still start practice with a series of static stretches (“sit, straddle out, stretch to the right and hold for a count of thirty”)? Research shows that static stretching is a poor way to warm up, and stretching cold muscles increases the risk of injury. Static stretching should be done in the middle or end of practice when the body is warm and at its most limber.

How many of you loved your coach in high school and just continue to coach the way they coached you for no other reason than because it’s really all you know? This isn’t necessarily wrong, but here’s a big difference between the desk of every cheer coach with which I’m familiar and every sport coach that I know personally. A cheer coaches’ desk is often full of formation ideas, fundraising forms, uniform and T-shirt designs, chant/cheer material, and pep rally plans. A sport coach’s desk will have a book or two about the sport itself, maybe a third one that’s a drill book, and then a slew of other books from great coaches, motivators, and books about coaching processes, teaching the game, getting the most out of your players, etc. Great coaches spend as much time learning about coaching as they do studying their particular game.

I’ve had some successes and some familiars, but I refuse to just maintain the status quo “just because.”

I can see we come from very different places lol. But your input has been insightful.

To me, using outside judges IS transparent because I’ve seen perfectly competent girls get cut from teams due to politics (parent advisor wanted friends’ daughters on team...skills be damned). SUPER shady. With unbiased judges, there is no room for that. And yeah, I guess other sports teams don’t do that, but I don’t really compare us to them because cheer is inherently different from other sports. That’s what makes it so great. You’ll never be bored out of your mind watching cheerleading, for starters.

My state recently just recognised cheer as a sport. Which is all well and good, but all the accomodations we’ve had to make really highlighted for me how different it is from other sports. Not in terms of athleticism (hell no), but in terms of definition. Like that cheer teams never have weekly games where two teams go head to head and there is one winner. The nature of cheer and how it’s organised are just different. But that doesn’t mean less worthy or less respectable. And even though we have the recognition now, it won’t change the fact that some people will never understand or appreciate cheer. I personally think it’s because cheer has been aligned as a “feminine” endeavour (skirts, bows, makeup) and if something is feminine, it can’t be that hard right? Only the sports that boys consider worth doing are hard. That’s how a lot of the female basketball players at my school think. They also seem to think they because they play a “boy” sport and eschew cheer for being too “girly” and “weak” that they’re some kind of feminist icons. When in reality, when they dismiss cheer for being “girly” because they assume “girly” = “weak” they’re about as far from feminists as they can get.

Anyway.

I forgot where I was going with this, but I do agree that no one should be doing conditioning as punishment or cold stretches anymore. So bad for you.

 

[CheerItFullOut]

My intent was never to accuse any individual of any wrong doing. My intent was to foster thought on, “is this really the best way?” I meet similar resistance in my “day” job because I am constantly pushing the envelope against policies and procedures, going against the grain, and refusing to believe that a certain way is better just because that’s how it’s always been done. My coworkers often come back at me like they’ve been attacked as well, when I’m not attacking them personally, but attacking the process. I’ve changed many processes by which we do things both in my career and in coaching at our school because I see a problem, get down to the root of it, and create an intervention that makes it go away.

Cheerleading is chock full of traditions where it has allowed itself to fall dreadfully behind the times, ESPECIALLY at the high school level. Some examples:

The idea of outside judges is an archaic holdover from when we went to that style to justify getting away from having the student body vote on the team in a popularity contest.

How many of you routinely do strength training with your team? Not calisthenics, but actual Olympic lifting and strength training? We should be doing this for our athletes.

How many of you still use conditioning as a form of punishment? I’ve posted about this several times on the board. Doing so gets you about 60% effort on the conditioning part. I can guarantee if you will cut that out and make them see how conditioning will benefit their performance your effort level will instantly go up to about 90% on a daily basis, and will occasionally climb to 100%.

How many of you still start practice with a series of static stretches (“sit, straddle out, stretch to the right and hold for a count of thirty”)? Research shows that static stretching is a poor way to warm up, and stretching cold muscles increases the risk of injury. Static stretching should be done in the middle or end of practice when the body is warm and at its most limber.

How many of you loved your coach in high school and just continue to coach the way they coached you for no other reason than because it’s really all you know? This isn’t necessarily wrong, but here’s a big difference between the desk of every cheer coach with which I’m familiar and every sport coach that I know personally. A cheer coaches’ desk is often full of formation ideas, fundraising forms, uniform and T-shirt designs, chant/cheer material, and pep rally plans. A sport coach’s desk will have a book or two about the sport itself, maybe a third one that’s a drill book, and then a slew of other books from great coaches, motivators, and books about coaching processes, teaching the game, getting the most out of your players, etc. Great coaches spend as much time learning about coaching as they do studying their particular game.

I’ve had some successes and some familiars, but I refuse to just maintain the status quo “just because.”

Yup, yes and Amen

 

[CheerItFullOut]

I can see we come from very different places lol. But your input has been insightful.

To me, using outside judges IS transparent because I’ve seen perfectly competent girls get cut from teams due to politics (parent advisor wanted friends’ daughters on team...skills be damned). SUPER shady. With unbiased judges, there is no room for that. And yeah, I guess other sports teams don’t do that, but I don’t really compare us to them because cheer is inherently different from other sports. That’s what makes it so great. You’ll never be bored out of your mind watching cheerleading, for starters.

My state recently just recognised cheer as a sport. Which is all well and good, but all the accomodations we’ve had to make really highlighted for me how different it is from other sports. Not in terms of athleticism (hell no), but in terms of definition. Like that cheer teams never have weekly games where two teams go head to head and there is one winner. The nature of cheer and how it’s organised are just different. But that doesn’t mean less worthy or less respectable. And even though we have the recognition now, it won’t change the fact that some people will never understand or appreciate cheer. I personally think it’s because cheer has been aligned as a “feminine” endeavour (skirts, bows, makeup) and if something is feminine, it can’t be that hard right? Only the sports that boys consider worth doing are hard. That’s how a lot of the female basketball players at my school think. They also seem to think they because they play a “boy” sport and eschew cheer for being too “girly” and “weak” that they’re some kind of feminist icons. When in reality, when they dismiss cheer for being “girly” because they assume “girly” = “weak” they’re about as far from feminists as they can get.

Anyway.

I forgot where I was going with this, but I do agree that no one should be doing conditioning as punishment or cold stretches anymore. So bad for you.

If you are from California I feel you on the Sport thing ... it’s like thanks but no thanks for throwing us the “sports TITLE” bone... but really we were just slapped with a bunch of silly restrictions, given almost no benefits or real athletic priority/status ... Oh, and to top it off, Everyone keeps trying to make “Fetch” happen with HS Stunt the Sport.
So now it’s:
FROSH, JV, Varsity Sideline and basketball/PeP
Then JV/Varsity traditional competition and Gameday and now stunt the sport...
Now parents can be ticked at us year round... lol j/k
(But not really) :/