High School Tryout Results

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

If you are from California I feel you on the Sport thing ... it’s like thanks but no thanks for throwing us the “sports TITLE” bone... but really we were just slapped with a bunch of silly restrictions, given almost no benefits or real athletic priority/status ... Oh, and to top it off, Everyone keeps trying to make “Fetch” happen with HS Stunt the Sport.
So now it’s:
FROSH, JV, Varsity Sideline and basketball/PeP
Then JV/Varsity traditional competition and Gameday and now stunt the sport...
Now parents can be ticked at us year round... lol j/k
(But not really) :/

Yes, you guys out West are currently feeling a very high degree of “be careful what you ask for.” I’ve read through several threads here about what they’ve done to you with the granting of “sport” status. The regulations and such are just the tip of the iceberg.

I’ve lobbied against people who get their panties in a wad of the word “sport” for about 16 of my 21 years in the game. There is another, unintended, consequence of “sport” status to which we have yet to see. If a court case ever reaches SCOTUS and they determine that a state has put in regulations for cheerleading to count for title IX purposes, coed cheerleading will be on the chopping block at any school that struggles to meet title IX requirements. As a guy, I don’t think that’s cool.

Is having an obscure title really worth it?

I work in an emergency department full of physicians. In other places, nurses call physicians doctor as a sign of respect. We are all on a first name basis with our docs. I can assure you, we respect the one who demonstrate a high level of competence, no matter what we call them.

From my perspective, cheerleading would be much better off in the respect column if we just demonstrated a high level of competence spending our time and energy coaching our kids like the other athletes in the school. Throwing our noses up in the air, beating our chests, and demanding to be called a sport more or less arbitrarily could continue to have to far worse consequences.

 

[cheer25mom]

My intent was never to accuse any individual of any wrong doing. My intent was to foster thought on, “is this really the best way?” I meet similar resistance in my “day” job because I am constantly pushing the envelope against policies and procedures, going against the grain, and refusing to believe that a certain way is better just because that’s how it’s always been done. My coworkers often come back at me like they’ve been attacked as well, when I’m not attacking them personally, but attacking the process. I’ve changed many processes by which we do things both in my career and in coaching at our school because I see a problem, get down to the root of it, and create an intervention that makes it go away.

Cheerleading is chock full of traditions where it has allowed itself to fall dreadfully behind the times, ESPECIALLY at the high school level. Some examples:

The idea of outside judges is an archaic holdover from when we went to that style to justify getting away from having the student body vote on the team in a popularity contest.

How many of you routinely do strength training with your team? Not calisthenics, but actual Olympic lifting and strength training? We should be doing this for our athletes.

How many of you still use conditioning as a form of punishment? I’ve posted about this several times on the board. Doing so gets you about 60% effort on the conditioning part. I can guarantee if you will cut that out and make them see how conditioning will benefit their performance your effort level will instantly go up to about 90% on a daily basis, and will occasionally climb to 100%.

How many of you still start practice with a series of static stretches (“sit, straddle out, stretch to the right and hold for a count of thirty”)? Research shows that static stretching is a poor way to warm up, and stretching cold muscles increases the risk of injury. Static stretching should be done in the middle or end of practice when the body is warm and at its most limber.

How many of you loved your coach in high school and just continue to coach the way they coached you for no other reason than because it’s really all you know? This isn’t necessarily wrong, but here’s a big difference between the desk of every cheer coach with which I’m familiar and every sport coach that I know personally. A cheer coaches’ desk is often full of formation ideas, fundraising forms, uniform and T-shirt designs, chant/cheer material, and pep rally plans. A sport coach’s desk will have a book or two about the sport itself, maybe a third one that’s a drill book, and then a slew of other books from great coaches, motivators, and books about coaching processes, teaching the game, getting the most out of your players, etc. Great coaches spend as much time learning about coaching as they do studying their particular game.

I’ve had some successes and some familiars, but I refuse to just maintain the status quo “just because.”

Using phrases like "shady coaches" to describe those to choose outside judges, saying they don't have tho guts to stand behind their decisions, and saying that you have never judged a tryout where coaches weren't doing something shady IS in fact attacking the ethics of anyone who uses outside judges.

We are ground bound, but if we weren't we would be doing a weight program. We do core strength training. It's the basis of everything else.

I have always been against conditioning as punishment.

We warm up BEFORE we do some light stretches, and save heavy stretching for the end of practice. CP's all star program and my years of dance taught me that.

I didn't cheer in high school, I was a dancer but I do use a lot of what I learned there. I think it's a solid foundation to build from. I am just starting out as a coach, and I agree that coaches need to spend more time on the art of coaching.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Using phrases like "shady coaches" to describe those to choose outside judges, saying they don't have tho guts to stand behind their decisions, and saying that you have never judged a tryout where coaches weren't doing something shady IS in fact attacking the ethics of anyone who uses outside judges.

Since my opinions of using outside judging have obviously struck a nerve with you, then I am going to challenge you to name one solid reason for having someone else pick your team.

Here are all the rationale I've read in this thread so far, and my attack on each of them:

"We use outside judges because if susie's mom throws a fit we don't have a leg to stand on against her." Why do I need a leg to stand on? I'm the coach. I made the decision. If Susie's mom doesn't like it, she can climb the ladder to administration. If administration is doing their job, they will support me with or without outside judges. If administration doesn't support me, they can go do something anatomically impossible, and I'll take my talents elsewhere. I was looking for a coaching job when I found this one, and cheer coaching positions are a dime-a-dozen. That's what I mean by having the guts to stand behind your decision.

"We use outside judges because it helps with the more subjective parts of the tryout process." The subjective parts of cheerleading are the most fundamental parts of cheerleading. If you need help with that part of the tryout process, you probably need to rethink your role as a head coach. How are you going to sell the idea that you should be teaching advanced skills like stunting and tumbling if you have trouble evaluating fundamental skills like standing there and waving your arms around?

"We use outside judges because our administration says we have to." Then you have a decision to make. You can either take the judges results and post them exactly as written, or you can alter them to your liking and post the team you want. In option A, you will never reach your full potential as a coach because virtually every year you're going to get a kid who doesn't jive with your philosophy or who the judges have seen for one day, maybe they were borderline skill-wise, but they are completely uncoachable. In option B, you've just met the definition of "shady" because you're using the outside judges to appease administration and let everyone believe that it's all decided by the judges, but you're secretly going against that and doing whatever you want to do anyway..... which takes me back to my first argument.

I haven't looked back through this, but there is one use for judges that I would digress on, and that's if you simply cannot accommodate all of the candidates at tryouts, even in stations, with the number of coaches you have on staff. I'm envisioning a huge school with 100 candidates, but only 2 coaches. I would almost give judges the green light on that one, but I would still say that you'd be better off, long term, picking the team yourself. That might mean laying out some minimal tumbling guidelines, judging tumbling the first day, and that would, in most circumstances, cull the herd to make it more manageable for the rest of the tryout process.

I simply cannot come up with one good reason to let some outside force influence my season from day one.

 

[cheer25mom]

Since my opinions of using outside judging have obviously struck a nerve with you, then I am going to challenge you to name one solid reason for having someone else pick your team.

Here are all the rationale I've read in this thread so far, and my attack on each of them:

"We use outside judges because if susie's mom throws a fit we don't have a leg to stand on against her." Why do I need a leg to stand on? I'm the coach. I made the decision. If Susie's mom doesn't like it, she can climb the ladder to administration. If administration is doing their job, they will support me with or without outside judges. If administration doesn't support me, they can go do something anatomically impossible, and I'll take my talents elsewhere. I was looking for a coaching job when I found this one, and cheer coaching positions are a dime-a-dozen. That's what I mean by having the guts to stand behind your decision.

"We use outside judges because it helps with the more subjective parts of the tryout process." The subjective parts of cheerleading are the most fundamental parts of cheerleading. If you need help with that part of the tryout process, you probably need to rethink your role as a head coach. How are you going to sell the idea that you should be teaching advanced skills like stunting and tumbling if you have trouble evaluating fundamental skills like standing there and waving your arms around?

"We use outside judges because our administration says we have to." Then you have a decision to make. You can either take the judges results and post them exactly as written, or you can alter them to your liking and post the team you want. In option A, you will never reach your full potential as a coach because virtually every year you're going to get a kid who doesn't jive with your philosophy or who the judges have seen for one day, maybe they were borderline skill-wise, but they are completely uncoachable. In option B, you've just met the definition of "shady" because you're using the outside judges to appease administration and let everyone believe that it's all decided by the judges, but you're secretly going against that and doing whatever you want to do anyway..... which takes me back to my first argument.

I haven't looked back through this, but there is one use for judges that I would digress on, and that's if you simply cannot accommodate all of the candidates at tryouts, even in stations, with the number of coaches you have on staff. I'm envisioning a huge school with 100 candidates, but only 2 coaches. I would almost give judges the green light on that one, but I would still say that you'd be better off, long term, picking the team yourself. That might mean laying out some minimal tumbling guidelines, judging tumbling the first day, and that would, in most circumstances, cull the herd to make it more manageable for the rest of the tryout process.

I simply cannot come up with one good reason to let some outside force influence my season from day one.

Like it or not, judges provide legal protection to the school and the coaches. It's not just the administration we have to worry about. Susie's mom can and often will sue or threaten to sue because she thinks Susie was targeted or discriminated against. It's easier for the administration to stand up to Susie's mom a prevent a lawsuit with unbiased, objective scoring. They can show her a concrete numerical guide to WHY her child didn't make the team. Believe me, it makes a LOT of difference when you are fighting that fight. Had we not had them this year, I would be stuck with 2 girls who would have embarrassed themselves and the team all year because they just couldn't keep up. Because we had outside judges give an objective score, we were able to have our results stand.

I would argue that cutting someone based on the idea the they don't "jive with your philosophy" is just as shady as anything you are accusing others of. You make cuts based on skill, period. No returning kid who was that detrimental to the team should ever make it back to try out again. A coach who is willing to stand up for their program will have removed them from the squad. You really cannot tell that about new kids in a few tryout sessions. You certainly cannot go off what a previous coach say either. Making that call and cutting a kid is the definition of shady. Those kids whoa re skilled but have a toxic attitude should quickly accumulate enough demerits to get kicked off.

It sounds like its a power thing with you, no one else controls anything about MY team. Sometimes its a good thing to let that go a little bit and take a step back. Having outside judges doesn't limit your ability to be in control. YOU set the tryout criteria, the judging criteria, and the tryout requirements. Do that correctly, and you will get the kids you need for a successful team.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Like it or not, judges provide legal protection to the school and the coaches. It's not just the administration we have to worry about. Susie's mom can and often will sue or threaten to sue because she thinks Susie was targeted or discriminated against. It's easier for the administration to stand up to Susie's mom a prevent a lawsuit with unbiased, objective scoring. They can show her a concrete numerical guide to WHY her child didn't make the team. Believe me, it makes a LOT of difference when you are fighting that fight. Had we not had them this year, I would be stuck with 2 girls who would have embarrassed themselves and the team all year because they just couldn't keep up. Because we had outside judges give an objective score, we were able to have our results stand.

I would argue that cutting someone based on the idea the they don't "jive with your philosophy" is just as shady as anything you are accusing others of. You make cuts based on skill, period. No returning kid who was that detrimental to the team should ever make it back to try out again. A coach who is willing to stand up for their program will have removed them from the squad. You really cannot tell that about new kids in a few tryout sessions. You certainly cannot go off what a previous coach say either. Making that call and cutting a kid is the definition of shady. Those kids whoa re skilled but have a toxic attitude should quickly accumulate enough demerits to get kicked off.

It sounds like its a power thing with you, no one else controls anything about MY team. Sometimes its a good thing to let that go a little bit and take a step back. Having outside judges doesn't limit your ability to be in control. YOU set the tryout criteria, the judging criteria, and the tryout requirements. Do that correctly, and you will get the kids you need for a successful team.

It is absolutely a power thing. I am quick to give my girls the credit when we succeed, but I take the full blame when we fail. If I'm going to take responsibilities for failures, I'm going to control all of the controllables to ensure our success. We've had two principals and two AD's in my five years here. Principal one fired previous coach because of the daily cheer drama phone calls. I was almost three full seasons in before principal two took the only cheer drama phone call under my watch. After asking me for the low down, he said, "with your track record, I can assure you this will be a very short phone call." That was me, a paraprofessional, versus a parent who thought her status as a full time school employee was going to carry some weight. AD number one found out all the things I was doing differently over time, and because of the lack of problems we were having began sharing it at the AD meetings. Within a year, another coach in our school district was told she HAD to change her ways, and when she bucked against the changes was fired. Another coach who isn't in our district was told the same, did so, and their drama all but went away. AD number two has verbalized to me that he wishes half the sport coaches in the school ran their programs the way I do.

I can tell in five minutes if a kid is coachable. Case in point: Had a kid with borderline skills this year who asked if she could try being a flyer at tryouts. I told her point blank, "You have no experience, I did not graduate a single flyer from last year's team, and I've got 2 excellent incoming freshmen flyers that I'm not even sure what I'm going to do with yet. I will let you try, but you will be better off basing." I then put her in groups as a base, and let her attempt flying. She was dangerous in either position, but really a danger to others as a top. I told her that flying wasn't going to work out for her every day, yet every day she was trying to put a group together when I would give them some random stunting time that would allow her to be a top. That kid does not have a team-first mentality. She was after one spot, not any spot. Peace and chicken grease.

As to taking a kid with skills who has a horrible attitude. Did that this year too. I couldn't justify cutting her skill set, but she is well aware of the fact that if she doesn't open up her mind to being a back as opposed to a base, that she's not going to get near a comp floor.

I purposefully put kids in positions I know they don't want and/or aren't comfortable with just to see their body language response. Kids will say anything, but their bodies tell the real truth. The non-competitor will acquiesce and do what's asked, with about half effort. The competitor that is going to be successful, will do what's asked, ask for correction, and with full effort try again. When girl who doesn't want to main tries a prep with my smallest, most experienced top, and it barely gets to eye level, and then my 90-pound top takes the same 85-pound top and main bases her in a full up, I have witnessed the difference between one who just relents and does it, and one who competes and goes after it.

Coachability and attitude are two of the easiest things to see in a tryout week. They get missed completely by judges who show up for the last day when everyone is all "purtied" up and finally putting on their best show.

Lastly, if you think anything on the planet is going to save you from litigation when someone chooses to sue you, you are sorely mistaken. I live my life documenting and defending against potential lawsuits every minute of every day. It doesn't matter what the record looks like, anyone with a bankroll big enough can contact the law offices of Douchebag and Scheister and take steps towards litigation.

By your own admission, you're just starting out in your coaching career. Don't believe all the stuff people tell you about how things "have" to be. Most of them are just regurgitating what they were told, and they've never tried anything different.

 

[CheerItFullOut]

Like it or not, judges provide legal protection to the school and the coaches. It's not just the administration we have to worry about. Susie's mom can and often will sue or threaten to sue because she thinks Susie was targeted or discriminated against. It's easier for the administration to stand up to Susie's mom a prevent a lawsuit with unbiased, objective scoring. They can show her a concrete numerical guide to WHY her child didn't make the team. Believe me, it makes a LOT of difference when you are fighting that fight. Had we not had them this year, I would be stuck with 2 girls who would have embarrassed themselves and the team all year because they just couldn't keep up. Because we had outside judges give an objective score, we were able to have our results stand.

I would argue that cutting someone based on the idea the they don't "jive with your philosophy" is just as shady as anything you are accusing others of. You make cuts based on skill, period. No returning kid who was that detrimental to the team should ever make it back to try out again. A coach who is willing to stand up for their program will have removed them from the squad. You really cannot tell that about new kids in a few tryout sessions. You certainly cannot go off what a previous coach say either. Making that call and cutting a kid is the definition of shady. Those kids whoa re skilled but have a toxic attitude should quickly accumulate enough demerits to get kicked off.

It sounds like its a power thing with you, no one else controls anything about MY team. Sometimes its a good thing to let that go a little bit and take a step back. Having outside judges doesn't limit your ability to be in control. YOU set the tryout criteria, the judging criteria, and the tryout requirements. Do that correctly, and you will get the kids you need for a successful team.

There has actually NEVER and I mean NEVER been an instance where anyone has successfully sued a school for a kid not making a High school cheer squad. (Actually look it up)... and in one instance one family had to pay the school. Sure, many attempts, but all failures (in HS)
As for outside judges protecting you or the school... if they are hired by you or the school... they do not protect you or the school because in “legal argument” the “unbiased judging” has become biased in that it was chosen by YOU... and judging is taking place in your presence...in order for judging to be considered unbiased it needs to be hired by the district or state and proctored by an outside source. (See my first post)
Although you may “think” you are being fair and just by picking outside judges... who you feel may be qualified might not be according to a parent or child. You may prefer NCA judges where a kid took grew up cheering UCA. (VERY similar but different)... you may not even know the judges at all but by hiring them they are of YOUR or the schools prefrence and you KNOW some of your candidates... therefore bias.
So no, you are not protected from any liability... however there isn’t really any “liability”... it’s your team and you should meet the criteria and qualifications to coach it and choose it.... therefore argue a great defense for your choices as to who should make it.

 

[CheerItFullOut]

P.S. in short- let’s all agree to disagree ;)

 

[ScottyB]

I’ve lobbied against people who get their panties in a wad of the word “sport” for about 16 of my 21 years in the game. There is another, unintended, consequence of “sport” status to which we have yet to see. If a court case ever reaches SCOTUS and they determine that a state has put in regulations for cheerleading to count for title IX purposes, coed cheerleading will be on the chopping block at any school that struggles to meet title IX requirements. As a guy, I don’t think that’s cool.

And that will be a major blow for the spread of the sport in general. The interest in international cheerleading is in Coed. By and large the audience focus on cheer related media is majorly coed.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Right. Also be reasonable.

Like, me doing things a certain way does not = someone else being totally wrong. Or being a spineless weenie or whatever from upthread.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

P.S. in short- let’s all agree to disagree ;)

Oh come on...you couldn’t wait to pull this one out until 7pm? These debates give me something to do while I’m sitting triage waiting on a REAL emergency to show up...

 

[ScottyB]

If you are from California I feel you on the Sport thing ... it’s like thanks but no thanks for throwing us the “sports TITLE” bone... but really we were just slapped with a bunch of silly restrictions, given almost no benefits or real athletic priority/status ... Oh, and to top it off, Everyone keeps trying to make “Fetch” happen with HS Stunt the Sport.
So now it’s:
FROSH, JV, Varsity Sideline and basketball/PeP
Then JV/Varsity traditional competition and Gameday and now stunt the sport...
Now parents can be ticked at us year round... lol j/k
(But not really) :/

Interesting... Varsity was lobbying against the CIF decision (for obvious business reasons). And now they are pushing HS Stunt to replace what they potentially will have lost.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Interesting... Varsity was lobbying against the CIF decision (for obvious business reasons). And now they are pushing HS Stunt to replace what they potentially will have lost.

Scotty you know varsity’s inner workings better than I. Isn’t STUNT a little more of a spinoff? I have always felt like Jim and the other guy wrote down the first rules to stunt on a napkin in a bar somewhere...

 

[CheerItFullOut]

Scotty you know varsity’s inner workings better than I. Isn’t STUNT a little more of a spinoff? I have always felt like Jim and the other guy wrote down the first rules to stunt on a napkin in a bar somewhere...

...all I know is it’s creating burnout.
Diluting programs... kids are being forced in to fill “stunt” spots and out of traditional cheer.
We don’t have Stunt however I have worked with Stunt the Sport schools and I was an official this past season...
I’ve never seen more kids take headers on a mat in my life trying to attempt combinationations they’re clearly not properly trained to execute because there was a district wide implementation of participation.
There’s no camp requirement for stunt... so a lot of these squads/teams are “winging” it...off of videos
It’s the equivalent of you tube coaching

 

[cheer25mom]

There has actually NEVER and I mean NEVER been an instance where anyone has successfully sued a school for a kid not making a High school cheer squad. (Actually look it up)... and in one instance one family had to pay the school. Sure, many attempts, but all failures (in HS)
As for outside judges protecting you or the school... if they are hired by you or the school... they do not protect you or the school because in “legal argument” the “unbiased judging” has become biased in that it was chosen by YOU... and judging is taking place in your presence...in order for judging to be considered unbiased it needs to be hired by the district or state and proctored by an outside source. (See my first post)
Although you may “think” you are being fair and just by picking outside judges... who you feel may be qualified might not be according to a parent or child. You may prefer NCA judges where a kid took grew up cheering UCA. (VERY similar but different)... you may not even know the judges at all but by hiring them they are of YOUR or the schools prefrence and you KNOW some of your candidates... therefore bias.
So no, you are not protected from any liability... however there isn’t really any “liability”... it’s your team and you should meet the criteria and qualifications to coach it and choose it.... therefore argue a great defense for your choices as to who should make it.

No one ever said it was complete protection. NOTHING is, but having judges who have no relationship to the candidates judging goes a LONG way towards discrediting claims of bias and helps tryout results stand up to scrutiny when a parent is unhappy, and just because a parent has never successfully sued over cheer doesn't mean it cannot happen. The climate around these things is changing. Just having to mount a defense against something like this is exorbitantly expensive. Outside judges and objective and transparent scoring process go a long way towards never having to defend you tryout in court.

 

[CheerItFullOut]

No one ever said it was complete protection. NOTHING is, but having judges who have no relationship to the candidates judging goes a LONG way towards discrediting claims of bias and helps tryout results stand up to scrutiny when a parent is unhappy, and just because a parent has never successfully sued over cheer doesn't mean it cannot happen. The climate around these things is changing. Just having to mount a defense against something like this is exorbitantly expensive. Outside judges and objective and transparent scoring process go a long way towards never having to defend you tryout in court.

I don’t care if a parent is unhappy (I think that’s just the fundamental difference between our arguments) I think we can Agree to disagree