All-Star Usasf Rules Gurus - Please Read

[King]

It's not as simple as just releases though. All rules have ripples and effects but from what I gather all the evidence is hearsay. What would be the grounds for appeal?

 

[debbie]

It's not as simple as just releases though. All rules have ripples and effects but from what I gather all the evidence is hearsay. What would be the grounds for appeal?

kingston if the usasf had the resources would you under any situation ever release a kid? I believe the answer is no

 

[King]

kingston if the usasf had the resources would you under any situation ever release a kid? I believe the answer is no

The problem is most of the stuff people would want to be released on is unprovable.

Outside of moving physical location and a program ceasing to exist mid season I don't think there is anything else you could prove in the amount of time allotted for a season. The whole rule is self limiting.

 

[ztaprincess]

Why do I feel like things are being taken very personal in this thread :cow:

Famous Mom I think the reason that some of us may be confused as to whether you think what you said is grounds for winning an appeal if the process exsisted is because you have mentioned previously in this thread that you had proof of illegal things happening within the gym by the owner. I assume (and many others probably do now) that what you mentioned is not the illegal things that you believe you have proof of but there is really no need to be rude to kingston for thinking the way he did because you didn't clarify that. I apologize if you didn't mean to come off rude but you sorta did.
I have to say that if I was on the appeals committee for this rule and I had to decide based on the incident explained above as to release an athlete I would not sign off on it. This is why if there was ever an appeals process it would be tricky and very hard to find a way to make it clear things like this will not warrant a successful appeal. While I am for adding it I also believe it is something that will take a ton of time to figure out and shouldn't just be formed overnight.
If people really want to help fix this rule you need to get a group together and put on paper a thought out fix to the problem and have members sign off on it to send in for consideration. If the coaches and owners of the new gym are upset that they cannot use these new athletes then they can easily star the process of doing just this and seeing what the USASF and everyone involved thinks about it.

 

[SkyBlue]

Why do I feel like things are being taken very personal in this thread :cow:

Famous Mom I think the reason that some of us may be confused as to whether you think what you said is grounds for winning an appeal if the process exsisted is because you have mentioned previously in this thread that you had proof of illegal things happening within the gym by the owner. I assume (and many others probably do now) that what you mentioned is not the illegal things that you believe you have proof of but there is really no need to be rude to kingston for thinking the way he did because you didn't clarify that. I apologize if you didn't mean to come off rude but you sorta did.
I have to say that if I was on the appeals committee for this rule and I had to decide based on the incident explained above as to release an athlete I would not sign off on it. This is why if there was ever an appeals process it would be tricky and very hard to find a way to make it clear things like this will not warrant a successful appeal. While I am for adding it I also believe it is something that will take a ton of time to figure out and shouldn't just be formed overnight.
If people really want to help fix this rule you need to get a group together and put on paper a thought out fix to the problem and have members sign off on it to send in for consideration. If the coaches and owners of the new gym are upset that they cannot use these new athletes then they can easily star the process of doing just this and seeing what the USASF and everyone involved thinks about it.

I was not trying to be rude to Kingston, however, I tend to get highly emotional when it appears that things of a sexual nature being said to children are being taken in a flippant manner.

Here is the bottom line and the main problem, there is a rule currently in place (release) that is in no way fair to ALL parties and is written to benefit only one side. If something is broken, it cannot and should not be enforceable until fixed.

Since I begun speaking about this, other information has come to light. I need to do a little research and then I will have an important question for the USASF gurus. Have a great night and see you all tomorrow!

 

[REA Dad]

I was told to contact the person in charge of the releases, which is what I did. I read through this document and as someone else mentioned there is nothing in here for parents to register a complaint. The athletes are the members, not the parents. Do we need to have our 13 and 14 yr old daughters file this complaint to let the USASF know that the owner of their gym thought it prudent to tell them that she needed to fire their coach because....well he was having an affair with a parent....but she didn't say parent, she actually named one of their team mates mother! What do we do when our daughters tell us something so horrendous...do we say, its ok honey, its a lie, but guess what.... we found out after November 1st so...well we are just stuck for this year if you want to go to Worlds? In what reality is something like that EVER OK? And for those of us that decided that and a host of other things was not ok, our children get punished by not being able to be on a worlds team because this person still gets to make the decision that she can basically hold our children hostage.

And what exactly are the penalties, what does a suspension of membership actually accomplish? Are the parents of that gym notified that their gym owner is unethical and has had her membership suspended? A financial penalty for this particular woman would mean nothing as she doesnt pay her bills now.

Nothing you said warrants an official complaint nor does it sound like any of it is illegal. Unfortunately bad business decisions are made everyday in every type of business. The punishment for that is the offender will go out of business.

 

[King]

Nothing you said warrants an official complaint nor does it sound like any of it is illegal. Unfortunately bad business decisions are made everyday in every type of business. The punishment for that is the offender will go out of business.

Correct. In the end the USASF will not do anything for the stuff suggested. None of it is illegal. Even if an appeals system existed it would have be to be based off of events that were determined to be illegal that affect you personally. Let's say a gym owner didn't pay their music guy. Those two have an issue, but unless your team didn't get their music wanting to leave because the owner doesn't pay it's bills is not a reason. Let's say the owner got arrested for speeding and doing 150 in a school zone. Unless he/she missed an unusual amount of time that affected more than a couple practices I don't think you would win that one either. And then both actions by the owner would have to have gone on long enough to affect not competing at competitions over a long time period. And this is me saying that there was a disciplinary committee appeal process of people willing to be on it. In fact the reason most parents would be up in arms and want to leave are for disagreements with the owner on their personal choices or beliefs. This is actually what the rule is meant to prevent. 95% of the appeals would probably be of this nature and would never be granted.

 

[CoachTamara]

Correct. In the end the USASF will not do anything for the stuff suggested. None of it is illegal. Even if an appeals system existed it would have be to be based off of events that were determined to be illegal that affect you personally. Let's say a gym owner didn't pay their music guy. Those two have an issue, but unless your team didn't get their music wanting to leave because the owner doesn't pay it's bills is not a reason. Let's say the owner got arrested for speeding and doing 150 in a school zone. Unless he/she missed an unusual amount of time that affected more than a couple practices I don't think you would win that one either. And then both actions by the owner would have to have gone on long enough to affect not competing at competitions over a long time period. And this is me saying that there was a disciplinary committee appeal process of people willing to be on it. In fact the reason most parents would be up in arms and want to leave are for disagreements with the owner on their personal choices or beliefs. This is actually what the rule is meant to prevent. 95% of the appeals would probably be of this nature and would never be granted.

This is such a small, small percentage of people in the big picture. This rule only impacts level 5 athletes, which is a large number but not as large as the lower levels. From there, it impacts worlds teams, which again makes the pool smaller. From worlds teams, it only impacts those that are unhappy and want to leave for another gym. Another VERY small number. This rule is not impacting those that are leaving in the proper manner and getting releases from owners, simply the ones that is causing problems for. Although it is very emotional for many, you have to look at the big picture. For there to be a whole committee and process for appeals, you are asking many people to get involved to help a very small number of people. I would much rather those people use their time and energy to help other areas of cheer (universal scoresheet, athlete registration, etc) that impact thousands of kids and parents, instead of only a handful.
Also, I know this is hard to comprehend, but worlds is not the end all be all. Children have many years of eligibility to go to worlds. This rule does not say they can never go, it is simply one year. One competition, one year. To a kid, that's a lot, but when they are an adult, they are not going to be impacted by this one competition. I would say the role of cheer in their lives and teaching them lessons will stick with them long before one competition (that they will probably attend the next year anyway). For many of us, worlds was not even around when we cheered. I still loved cheering, and had a great experience that was not defined by trying to be a world champion.

 

[shadow]

The problem is most of the stuff people would want to be released on is unprovable.

Outside of moving physical location and a program ceasing to exist mid season I don't think there is anything else you could prove in the amount of time allotted for a season. The whole rule is self limiting.

I was able to look it up. On the grundy county web site. How was that unprovable? All the other weird stuff maybe but it on the county website and it was against kids, the girl scouts.

 

[King]

I was able to look it up. On the grundy county web site. How was that unprovable? All the other weird stuff maybe but it on the county website and it was against kids, the girl scouts.

Was it against girls who were at the gym or who were not? And what happened?

I feel like I am being the police talking to seniors who just gave their money over to a scam artist over the phone with my arms out saying "there is nothing we can do".

 

[shadow]

Was it against girls who were at the gym or who were not? And what happened?

I feel like I am being the police talking to seniors who just gave their money over to a scam artist over the phone with my arms out saying "there is nothing we can do".

Looks like she was sued for taking their money and lost, over $5000 not sued by the kids the organization.

 

[socratesofcheer]

I was not trying to be rude to Kingston, however, I tend to get highly emotional when it appears that things of a sexual nature being said to children are being taken in a flippant manner.

Here is the bottom line and the main problem, there is a rule currently in place (release) that is in no way fair to ALL parties and is written to benefit only one side. If something is broken, it cannot and should not be enforceable until fixed.

Since I begun speaking about this, other information has come to light. I need to do a little research and then I will have an important question for the USASF gurus. Have a great night and see you all tomorrow!

This rule is in place to protect gyms from each other. You see, not too long ago Gym A would recruit kids from Gym B to go to worlds with Gym A. This made all the Gym B's really mad, therefore, this rule was put in place.

While there is no perfect rule for everything and everyone it's the best the USASF could come up with.

Now, if you are dissatisfied with your original gym owner and the USASF, sue 'em. If this situation is that important, you have the right to file a lawsuit against your gym owner, the USASF, and anyone else that you think is doing something wrong to you. I'm certain that a judge could file an injunction to let your daughter and friends go to the other gym until the whole shebang gets settled in court. (if you do go this route make sure you sue the gym owner for court costs so you're not out any cash if you win)

 

[King]

Looks like she was sued for taking their money and lost, over $5000 not sued by the kids the organization.

That's absolutely awful! But unfortunately has nothing to do with gym related stuff.

 

[shadow]

That's absolutely awful! But unfortunately has nothing to do with gym related stuff.

True, but when you add that to coaches not getting paid...

 

[shadow]

If a parent was trying to find this information out before they signed up it would have been extremely difficult. I live in Illinois and I did not know there even was a Grundy county