All-Star Warmup Standards

[King]

I know, but cheersafety was suggesting a minimum of 25ft and you were giving the example of one of the baskets that would need all 25ft to do it safely.

I think that its overkill to require a minimum of 2.5 basketball goals or nearly 2.5 stories of ceiling height when 17 ft more than adequately accommodates over 90% of the cheer population. Maybe worlds bids events need 25ft.

As to how I would set up an efficient warm up-

2 18x54 stunt mats 8 mins
2 18x70 spring tumbling strips 8 mins
1 54x42 non spring floor 4 mins
wait 8 mins then perform

the stunt and tumbling mats timing would be staggered by 4 minutes-
Team 1 gets on Stunt mat A at 2:00 moves to Tumbling mat A at 2:08 to the full floor at 2:16 moves to holding at 2:20 and performs at 2:28
Team 2 gets on Stunt mat B at 2:04 moves to Tumbling mat B at 2:12 to the full floor at 2:20 moves to holding at 2:24and performs at 2:32

But BlueCat was stating that few baskets reach that height. To which I disagree. Non-flipping baskets on boys with small flyers can reach 20 feet and upwards (as well as some flipping).

Now while most teams do not require that height I have also seen three boys on a level three team throw a 10 year old to a comparable height as the one in a video. Is it a rarity? Yes. Is it possible? Yes.

As well think of that new stunt video where the dad and daughter stunt together. If she was on a restricted Level 5 team (because she is too young for a worlds team) that had boys I think she would have the body control to squeeze out quite a few feet.

Last, does the ceiling height include the lights that drop down? If it is an 18 foot ceiling with hanging lights every 5 feet then its just as dangerous.

I think you do this the same way you build a bridge and set a weight limit. You set a limit that is way less than the bridge can actually hold. You set a minimum height so that in case someone came along you have all situations reasonably covered (and if they disregard the lights thing).

I don't know what that number is mind you. And that is the point of the discussion.

And yes I think there are lots of competitions that probably have chosen inadequate venues.

 

[CGAcheer]

But BlueCat was stating that few baskets reach that height. To which I disagree. Non-flipping baskets on boys with small flyers can reach 20 feet and upwards (as well as some flipping).

Now while most teams do not require that height I have also seen three boys on a level three team throw a 10 year old to a comparable height as the one in a video. Is it a rarity? Yes. Is it possible? Yes.

As well think of that new stunt video where the dad and daughter stunt together. If she was on a restricted Level 5 team (because she is too young for a worlds team) that had boys I think she would have the body control to squeeze out quite a few feet.

Last, does the ceiling height include the lights that drop down? If it is an 18 foot ceiling with hanging lights every 5 feet then its just as dangerous.

I think you do this the same way you build a bridge and set a weight limit. You set a limit that is way less than the bridge can actually hold. You set a minimum height so that in case someone came along you have all situations reasonably covered (and if they disregard the lights thing).

I don't know what that number is mind you. And that is the point of the discussion.

And yes I think there are lots of competitions that probably have chosen inadequate venues.

I would say more like a minimum clearance height of 17 ft (beams, lights, fans, whatever need to be at least 17)

I look at it more like cars than like a bridge-
can cars be more safe, of course. have a max speed of 30 mph and crumple zones that destroy the car on any kind of impact but negate any forces on the passengers. Its safe but impractical.

If a bridge fails, everyone on it, under it and to some extent near it dies or is severely injured

 

[coachbd]

Apparently the world record (based off Guiness Books) of highest basket toss is actually from Australia - 17 feet 8 inches high.
- - Explore Records - Guinness World Records

Although I agree it is likely that people are able to, and have, thrown baskets even higher - they just haven't attempted to make them official world record attempts :P

I think 20 feet would be a good height to cover the majority of scenarios (even elite coed baskets)

 

[xpressjag]

Just attended a NCA Championship recently and their warm ups went pretty well. We had 7 minutes on a 4 strip hard mat, 7 minutes on tumbling an 7 minutes on big floor. The only problem I have is that there needs to be a stretching/routine review or OPEN stunting mat. Many venues do not have places for you to go over the routine, stretch or do anything with the routine. If your going to choose a limited venue that has strict guidelines on no stunting, playing music or marking routines in hallways, then please provide an ample area to do that.

 

[BlueCat]

But BlueCat was stating that few baskets reach that height. To which I disagree. Non-flipping baskets on boys with small flyers can reach 20 feet and upwards (as well as some flipping).

Now while most teams do not require that height I have also seen three boys on a level three team throw a 10 year old to a comparable height as the one in a video. Is it a rarity? Yes. Is it possible? Yes.

As well think of that new stunt video where the dad and daughter stunt together. If she was on a restricted Level 5 team (because she is too young for a worlds team) that had boys I think she would have the body control to squeeze out quite a few feet.

Last, does the ceiling height include the lights that drop down? If it is an 18 foot ceiling with hanging lights every 5 feet then its just as dangerous.

I think you do this the same way you build a bridge and set a weight limit. You set a limit that is way less than the bridge can actually hold. You set a minimum height so that in case someone came along you have all situations reasonably covered (and if they disregard the lights thing).

I don't know what that number is mind you. And that is the point of the discussion.

And yes I think there are lots of competitions that probably have chosen inadequate venues.

I still maintain that VERY few baskets reach 20' under normal situations. Perhaps one of the top 2 or 3 stunting teams in the country could have a basket or two that is capable of going that high, but those are the exception, not the norm.

We have a 21' clear height (to the beam) in our gym, and we have had plenty of above-average basket tosses from our coed teams or visiting college teams. I have never seen one get even remotely close to the ceiling accidentally. We have 2-3 get within a couple of feet or so when the flyer simply reaches up directly, trying to touch it, but never when they are attempting normal skills. I would completely agree that anything hanging down that would be a hindrance (lights, speakers, etc) should be taken into account when figuring height.

A more controlled study would probably be in order. Actually measuring the highest basket tosses instead of relying on image manipulation (or my even less scientific method of guessing) would be a wise move, IMO. For what it is worth, the Guinness World Record for highest basket toss is 17' 8". While I seriously doubt that that is the highest basket ever attempted, at least that was in a more controlled setting.

 

[King]

I still maintain that VERY few baskets reach 20' under normal situations. Perhaps one of the top 2 or 3 stunting teams in the country could have a basket or two that is capable of going that high, but those are the exception, not the norm.

We have a 21' clear height (to the beam) in our gym, and we have had plenty of above-average basket tosses from our coed teams or visiting college teams. I have never seen one get even remotely close to the ceiling accidentally. We have 2-3 get within a couple of feet or so when the flyer simply reaches up directly, trying to touch it, but never when they are attempting normal skills. I would completely agree that anything hanging down that would be a hindrance (lights, speakers, etc) should be taken into account when figuring height.

A more controlled study would probably be in order. Actually measuring the highest basket tosses instead of relying on image manipulation (or my even less scientific method of guessing) would be a wise move, IMO. For what it is worth, the Guinness World Record for highest basket toss is 17' 8". While I seriously doubt that that is the highest basket ever attempted, at least that was in a more controlled setting.

Do we take into account that even if a flyer will not realistically come close to the ceiling if it affects their execution is it too low?

 

[imrichhowboutu]

2 18x54 stunt mats 8 mins
2 18x70 spring tumbling strips 8 mins
1 54x42 non spring floor 4 mins
wait 8 mins then perform

Why would you need a stunt mat that is longer than a normal strip by 12 feet? I think 3 normal panels 42' long is more than sufficient. I've never had an issue warming up stunts on 2 regular sized strips. Also, i have never seen a tumbling strip be 3 panels wide either.

 

[King]

Why would you need a stunt mat that is longer than a normal strip by 12 feet? I think 3 normal panels 42' long is more than sufficient. I've never had an issue warming up stunts on 2 regular sized strips. Also, i have never seen a tumbling strip be 3 panels wide either.

Now I am curious how you all attack warmups (if you don't mind sharing).

Usually for us every skill is done twice. On the stunt mat do all stunts twice (sometimes first time is modified or bump down, second time full out). Baskets (straight ride than kick twists). then pyramid twice (if the stunt mat is big enough).

Tumbling strip warmup all running, then standing, then jumps if you need to at the end. Take as many as you need but as few as you have to.

Last mat (full floor) mark through your routine, jumps full out, and anything else that needs to go.

 

[GreatWhite92]

Now I am curious how you all attack warmups (if you don't mind sharing).

Usually for us every skill is done twice. On the stunt mat do all stunts twice (sometimes first time is modified or bump down, second time full out). Baskets (straight ride than kick twists). then pyramid twice (if the stunt mat is big enough).

Tumbling strip warmup all running, then standing, then jumps if you need to at the end. Take as many as you need but as few as you have to.

Last mat (full floor) mark through your routine, jumps full out, and anything else that needs to go.

We basically had the same warm-up except the last mat we did all stunts with a bump down, no baskets and pyramid. if you wanted to throw you tumbling you could.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

How i've done them on the teams ive been on recently:
First mat - Stunts individually - Then all together
Half of the pyramid, then other half.
Baskets individually then all together
Any other random stunt or basket that isn't done as a team
Then everyone does their running passes on the tumble strip. Usually 2-3 a person. Then standing tumbling.
Everyone warms up jumps at the end while people are doing standing tumbling. Then jumps all together. On the big mat you do whatever you need to.

 

[CGAcheer]

Why would you need a stunt mat that is longer than a normal strip by 12 feet? I think 3 normal panels 42' long is more than sufficient. I've never had an issue warming up stunts on 2 regular sized strips. Also, i have never seen a tumbling strip be 3 panels wide either.

I wouldn't really, but 18 x 54 would most likely be large enough to put your entire large teams stunt sequence in formation. We tend to tumble 2 at a time in warmups and 18 would give you that extra bit of cushion before falling off the floor. Also you could warm up standing as a team, 2 handsprings is about all you can fit in 12 feet.

 

[cheersafety]

I still maintain that VERY few baskets reach 20' under normal situations. Perhaps one of the top 2 or 3 stunting teams in the country could have a basket or two that is capable of going that high, but those are the exception, not the norm.

We have a 21' clear height (to the beam) in our gym, and we have had plenty of above-average basket tosses from our coed teams or visiting college teams. I have never seen one get even remotely close to the ceiling accidentally. We have 2-3 get within a couple of feet or so when the flyer simply reaches up directly, trying to touch it, but never when they are attempting normal skills. I would completely agree that anything hanging down that would be a hindrance (lights, speakers, etc) should be taken into account when figuring height.

A more controlled study would probably be in order. Actually measuring the highest basket tosses instead of relying on image manipulation (or my even less scientific method of guessing) would be a wise move, IMO. For what it is worth, the Guinness World Record for highest basket toss is 17' 8". While I seriously doubt that that is the highest basket ever attempted, at least that was in a more controlled setting.

We did measure basket tosses and the tosses went from 16 feet to 23 1/2 feet.

In sport risk management it is industry standard to have at least a 5 feet buffer. Herb Appenzeller who wrote 33 books on risk management including the first ever in sport along with being a consultant for the NCAA and the NAIA is who made the decision that 25 feet is the minimum height needed.

Seriously blows me away and I think only in cheerleading never in sport would athletes and industry leaders get on a forum and argue that a ceiling height should be the same as how high you can throw.

I never once posted anything like it should be 25 feet because basket tosses are thrown that high all the time. Until cheerleading starts using science to make arguments we will continue to be laughed at by the sports world.

Also, just had to throw this in there that my daughter's JV stunt group back in 2003 could do 20 foot basket tosses and every time they would throw their 78 lb freshman flyer 20 feet in the air the whole gym would hold their breath. Basket height is all about technique so as long as your flyer has no fear even all girl can toss above 20 feet. Sounds like I should be charging teams to teach technique on baskets instead.

 

[BlueCat]

"Seriously blows me away and I think only in cheerleading never in sport would athletes and industry leaders get on a forum and argue that a ceiling height should be the same as how high you can throw.

I never once posted anything like it should be 25 feet because basket tosses are thrown that high all the time. Until cheerleading starts using science to make arguments we will continue to be laughed at by the sports world.

Also, just had to throw this in there that my daughter's JV stunt group back in 2003 could do 20 foot basket tosses and every time they would throw their 78 lb freshman flyer 20 feet in the air the whole gym would hold their breath. Basket height is all about technique so as long as your flyer has no fear even all girl can toss above 20 feet. Sounds like I should be charging teams to teach technique on baskets instead.

I didn't say I thought that the minimum ceiling height should be the same as the highest tosses. My statement was based on my belief that baskets did NOT go anywhere near that high. If it is demonstrated that baskets indeed to go that height, then my opinion of the minimum height needed would change.

I have never seen an all-girl basket get anywhere near 20'. If you are indeed able to teach a technique that enables 20' tosses with a typical JV team, then I would pay you myself to come teach us baskets.

I am willing and able to admit to being wrong, I just need to see some evidence.

 

[Seeker30]

for high school (no spring)
First Mat every stunt individually
second mat jumps tumbling
full floor- run routine no stunting only pyramid

 

[cheersafety]

I didn't say I thought that the minimum ceiling height should be the same as the highest tosses. My statement was based on my belief that baskets did NOT go anywhere near that high. If it is demonstrated that baskets indeed to go that height, then my opinion of the minimum height needed would change.

I have never seen an all-girl basket get anywhere near 20'. If you are indeed able to teach a technique that enables 20' tosses with a typical JV team, then I would pay you myself to come teach us baskets.

I am willing and able to admit to being wrong, I just need to see some evidence.

Send me video and I'll look at it there is a lot that can be seen from that on technique. Take the video from different angles so I can see each base's body position and of course a shot of the flyer.

If you want to actually hire someone to teach baskets Jackie the assistant coach for QU's Acro and Tumbling teaches baskets better than anyone I've ever seen.