Where Competitive Cheer Stands According to Title IX expert & Attorney

[King]

He testified that the Quinnipiac University competitive cheer team is not a sport.

Because competitive cheer could describe what we do OR teams competing in a sideline chant competition.

You name what we do sport cheer, there is no wiggle room.

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[King]

And if sport cheer was the name it wouldn't threaten traditional sideline cheer because its NOT cheerleading. Cheerleading and competitive cheer is not a sport BECAUSE it is not what we do. What we do is a sport.

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[cheersafety]

And if sport cheer was the name it wouldn't threaten traditional sideline cheer because its NOT cheerleading. Cheerleading and competitive cheer is not a sport BECAUSE it is not what we do. What we do is a sport.

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I like sport cheer.

 

[cheersafety]

I have to admit that my initial reaction is pretty negative. In fairness, however, I probably have an initial bias against those who immediately go the emotional heart-strings route, (champion for the catastrophically injured, "conscience of the industry", etc.) to make their point rather than a more logical one. I have no reason to doubt that you work hard and mean well, although it is a bit difficult to tell when you are promoting "cheer safety" or promoting "cheersafety." (It wouldn't surprise me if some have said the same - or much worse - about me.)

Many of us here have spent their entire professional careers in cheerleading. There are probably dozens of actual experts in every conceivable facet of cheerleading who either post or read these boards. Nearly every single one of them wants nothing but the best for the cheer athletes under their care. I can virtually guarantee that if you listed actual, well-thought-out, realistic ideas that would improve our industry and the safety of the children in our sport, the "powers that be" would be happy to consider them, regardless of their source.

Rather than get into a who-cares-more or who-knows-more argument, I would rather focus on potential improvements to our industry. What, specifically, would you like to see change in cheerleading?

I never intended on being a champion for the catastrophically injured. There was no immediate jump to the heart strings. I collected data on injuries because I was told in 2005 when I called around to find out about cheer injury studies that there were not very many. In fact the few that existed talk about how there was so little data. When I said it seemed like there were a lot of injuries people said "prove it, we think they are just flukes". So I put up a website and starting collecting injury reports. We also searched the internet and bought access to as many online sources as possible for lawsuits and newspapers. The numbers just kept growing and after organizing more data than I had first imagined we forwarded it to the National Center for Catastrophic Sports Injury Research. My research was published in the 2008 report. During that time while researching I got to know so many of the cheerleaders who had been injured. Their stories are amazing.

What the media never tells you all is the cheerleaders have the highest rate of recovery from catastrophic injuries. I know 9 who were paralyzed and learn to walk again!!! Their stories changed my life and I thought stage IV cancer with my 5 year old daughter was the big life changer, but no it was amazing cheerleaders who no matter what the odds or circumstances of their injuries that press on to be champions of their own life.

Have you ever heard about Patty Phommanyvong? She is a quadriplegic and can not talk. Does that stop her? No, she learn to communicate by blinking her eyes for yes and no since that is the only part of her body she can control. She even practiced so much she was able to vote in the last Presidential election through an interpreter. Now that is determination!

I wish we celebrated them more, seriously you would all be proud to know them.

As for change check out our Summer Safety Campaign for 2010. At the back are the guidelines we are working towards for all youth sports. www.nationalcheersafety.com/summer2010.pdf

As far as promoting "cheer safety or "cheersafety" I do my best to promote cheer safety, if it comes across as otherwise sometimes than maybe I should evaluate my style and be more careful in the future.

As for solutions you can look at www.nationalcheersafety.com/cheeredu.pdf

For more educational materials, the most used are: www.nationalcheersafety.com/emergencyplan.pdf
www.nationalcheersafety.com/heat.pdf
www.nationalcheersafety.com/aed.pdf

 

[ztaprincess]

People are reading that he is saying cheerleading isn't a sport and that is not what I am reading into it at all. What I read from the pieces posted on here is that he said cheerleading has sport components just like volleyball does but that under Title IX that the cheer team is NO MORE a sport then the volleyball team because there is little competition for the cheer team now. Ok so the volleyball team is not the best, but they still get to play against more then 6 other teams and more then just a few times in a college conference. I think that is what Jeff Webb was getting at instead of just saying well cheer isn't a sport yadda yadda yadda. Instead if competitive cheer like QU grows to more then a total of 7 teams and a handful of competition competing against each other then it WOULD fall under Title IX because there is competition.

Maybe the reason that I am reading into this differently is because I don't cheer anymore, but from a college student who is preparing to go into law school next fall I see exactly where Jeff Webb was coming from.

 

[The Sixth]

People are reading that he is saying cheerleading isn't a sport and that is not what I am reading into it at all. What I read from the pieces posted on here is that he said cheerleading has sport components just like volleyball does but that under Title IX that the cheer team is NO MORE a sport then the volleyball team because there is little competition for the cheer team now. Ok so the volleyball team is not the best, but they still get to play against more then 6 other teams and more then just a few times in a college conference. I think that is what Jeff Webb was getting at instead of just saying well cheer isn't a sport yadda yadda yadda. Instead if competitive cheer like QU grows to more then a total of 7 teams and a handful of competition competing against each other then it WOULD fall under Title IX because there is competition.

Maybe the reason that I am reading into this differently is because I don't cheer anymore, but from a college student who is preparing to go into law school next fall I see exactly where Jeff Webb was coming from.

I believe as tensions have eased, ppl are starting to understand that point. That yes, if faced with the question does their squad fit Title IX qualifications? No.

What ppl still do not understand, is why even testify at all, knowing that you are possibly hindering it's chance in the future??? And thus come the accusations that Varsity is protecting their business interest by not wanting it to be considered a sport while stating the complete opposite. As others have previously brought up, I've seen no mention anywhere that he was forced to testify.

 

[Mclovin]

He testified 'cheerleading' is not a sport. It's not. It's a sideline activity. What we do is Sport Cheer.

So if they asked if Sport Cheer is a sport there is less holding the sport back. There is no sidelines. There is no name confusion.

So when asked is Sport Cheer a sport? Why could anyone say its not?

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He testified that QU's competitive cheer team was not a sport. You are saying we should rename competitive cheer "sport cheer". It's the same sport, just a different name. He said it wasn't a sport.

 

[Mclovin]

I believe as tensions have eased, ppl are starting to understand that point. That yes, if faced with the question does their squad fit Title IX qualifications? No.

What ppl still do not understand, is why even testify at all, knowing that you are possibly hindering it's chance in the future??? And thus come the accusations that Varsity is protecting their business interest by not wanting it to be considered a sport while stating the complete opposite. As others have previously brought up, I've seen no mention anywhere that he was forced to testify.

But Jeff Webb wasn't called to be an expert witness on Title IX was he?? He was called to be an expert witness on whether or not collegiate competitive cheer was a sport. If I'm wrong on this, someone please let me know.

 

[King]

He testified that QU's competitive cheer team was not a sport. You are saying we should rename competitive cheer "sport cheer". It's the same sport, just a different name. He said it wasn't a sport.

I think this is the hardest thing to wrap our heads around BECAUSE it is so simple to us (the people knowledgable and in the thick of it). So you have to decide what is important to you and what really matters. Being called a sport? Lumping all the types of 'cheerleading' (the sport and non sport alike) together? When you lump everything under one giant category you open yourself to lawyer and legal wiggle room.

Be prepared, this is about to get deep. Stop reading if you don't your head to hurt.

For our discussion today we need to know one fact from your old 8th grade geometry class. Quadrilaterals are ANY 4 sided geometric figures. Picture examples of this: http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/q/qu/quadrilateral_hierarchy.png

We are going to have a different court case. The quadrilateral making team at Rutgers has for years been making quadrilaterals in there spare time. They are wanting to change and say they are now a square making team to get benefits and federal money. They at the last minute switch from making any type of quadrilateral to just rectangles. Extremely close to squares, but there are a few things keeping the rectangles they make from being true squares. The geometry team at Rutgers gets mad and brings up a court case.

John Entanglement is called to court as an expert on quadrilaterals. He says that all quadrilaterals are not squares. In fact, most quadrilaterals are not squares. Quadrilaterals have 4 sides, yes. But a square? Certainly not. And if we classify ALL quadrilaterals as squares we are going to open a pandoras box. Sure rectangles would become squares (which isn't too big a deal) but also trapazoids, rhombuses, parallelograms, and the dreaded trapezium!

John Entanglement doesn't want to hurt squares, but to help squares achieve and be all the geometry they can be he cannot call ALL quadrilaterals squares.

The allstar quadrilateral making team from Marietta, GA only makes squares. They are excellent square makers (and fine looking human beings and very attractive and nice and even smell good). They know that all they do is make squares. They meet all the legal definitions to be squares, except the name of what they do is still quadrilateral. They are trying to figure out if they rename what they do to separate themselves so that they can stand out as JUST square makers.

Right now being called a sport by Varsity or Title IX or any school is a legal thing. Legally Varsity (ie Jeff Webb) testified as an expert on Cheerleading and said Cheerleading as a whole is not a sport. If he said that Allstar Cheerleading is not a sport (which it is) I blame the fact that we still call ourselves Cheerleading as the problem.

WE ARE NOT COMPETING CHEERLEADING because cheerleading is 'not' a sport.

WHAT WE DO IS A SPORT

McLovin, you mentioned 'competitive cheer'.

There are ground bound cheerleading teams in Ohio. I am not sure what exactly is legal, but you can tell they don't stunt, pyramid, and basket. Is that competitive cheerleading?

Video for help:



Is that competitive cheerleading? Is THAT a sport?

WHY is the name so important? Because being classified as a sport is a legal definition at this point. We know what we do is a sport. But if you want it classified as such we gotta suck it up and do what is needed to be a sport.

HElllllllooo Sport Cheer. The square of cheerleading.

 

[The Sixth]

But Jeff Webb wasn't called to be an expert witness on Title IX was he?? He was called to be an expert witness on whether or not collegiate competitive cheer was a sport. If I'm wrong on this, someone please let me know.

Not directly, that I'm aware of. But in essence they still go hand in hand. In my understanding he was to testify whether competive cheer was a sport *as defined* by Title IX.

And that's where I was going with this, is he should have been well aware that it didn't prior to testifying. So it would serve no benefit QU's team, so why do it at all? Unless someone says he was subpoened to be an expert witness, than he had a choice.

 

[Num1Stunta]

I think this is the hardest thing to wrap our heads around BECAUSE it is so simple to us (the people knowledgable and in the thick of it). So you have to decide what is important to you and what really matters. Being called a sport? Lumping all the types of 'cheerleading' (the sport and non sport alike) together? When you lump everything under one giant category you open yourself to lawyer and legal wiggle room.

Be prepared, this is about to get deep. Stop reading if you don't your head to hurt.

For our discussion today we need to know one fact from your old 8th grade geometry class. Quadrilaterals are ANY 4 sided geometric figures. Picture examples of this: http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/q/qu/quadrilateral_hierarchy.png

We are going to have a different court case. The quadrilateral making team at Rutgers has for years been making quadrilaterals in there spare time. They are wanting to change and say they are now a square making team to get benefits and federal money. They at the last minute switch from making any type of quadrilateral to just rectangles. Extremely close to squares, but there are a few things keeping the rectangles they make from being true squares. The geometry team at Rutgers gets mad and brings up a court case.

John Entanglement is called to court as an expert on quadrilaterals. He says that all quadrilaterals are not squares. In fact, most quadrilaterals are not squares. Quadrilaterals have 4 sides, yes. But a square? Certainly not. And if we classify ALL quadrilaterals as squares we are going to open a pandoras box. Sure rectangles would become squares (which isn't too big a deal) but also trapazoids, rhombuses, parallelograms, and the dreaded trapezium!

John Entanglement doesn't want to hurt squares, but to help squares achieve and be all the geometry they can be he cannot call ALL quadrilaterals squares.

The allstar quadrilateral making team from Marietta, GA only makes squares. They are excellent square makers (and fine looking human beings and very attractive and nice and even smell good). They know that all they do is make squares. They meet all the legal definitions to be squares, except the name of what they do is still quadrilateral. They are trying to figure out if they rename what they do to separate themselves so that they can stand out as JUST square makers.

Right now being called a sport by Varsity or Title IX or any school is a legal thing. Legally Varsity (ie Jeff Webb) testified as an expert on Cheerleading and said Cheerleading as a whole is not a sport. If he said that Allstar Cheerleading is not a sport (which it is) I blame the fact that we still call ourselves Cheerleading as the problem.

WE ARE NOT COMPETING CHEERLEADING because cheerleading is 'not' a sport.

WHAT WE DO IS A SPORT

McLovin, you mentioned 'competitive cheer'.

There are ground bound cheerleading teams in Ohio. I am not sure what exactly is legal, but you can tell they don't stunt, pyramid, and basket. Is that competitive cheerleading?

Video for help:



Is that competitive cheerleading? Is THAT a sport?

WHY is the name so important? Because being classified as a sport is a legal definition at this point. We know what we do is a sport. But if you want it classified as such we gotta suck it up and do what is needed to be a sport.

HElllllllooo Sport Cheer. The square of cheerleading.

Absolutely the biggest nerdgasm this board has ever given me.... Thanks King lol

Side note: I like Cheersport better than Sport Cheer..... In other sports that include the word 'sport' in their name, the Sport part always comes second: Combat sports= Mixed martial arts, Multisport- swimming, biking, and running events, etc

 

[King]

Heh, I sometimes wish the Random section of the board would be okay with me discussing a bit nerdier stuff than what happened last night on Jersey Shore...

 

[cheersafety]

John Entanglement is called to court as an expert on quadrilaterals.

Experts are not called or ordered to court, they are hired by the legal team to win the case for their side. It is a choice. Experts on quadrilaterals can only give their opinion on quadrilaterals, not squares unless the courts deem them fit to testify on squares too. If John Entanglement is hired by the plaintiffs to testify that squares are not quadrilaterals it is up to the judge to know that the case is about quadrilaterals not squares.

If the expert proclaims under oath to the judge "I was never under the impression that I was making squares. We make quadrilaterals." The expert has let the judge know I am not an expert on squares.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Can I nominate this for the strangest thread at next year's Fierce Awards? All we need is potato to weigh in.

 

[RockstarCheer]

While I know some could argue who are you, they don't have to work with you or NCSF, but we do represent former cheerleaders who have been paralyzed, killed and disabled doing cheer.

Oh, gotcha...Ok, so you're kind of like an attorney. Like if I'm looking for someone to represent me in a case or a lawsuit, I'd hire you or pay you to represent me if my daughter was injured?