All-Star 2012 Worlds

[King]

ok, better understood now, i thought you had gone a tad bit crazy when i thought you were saying YOU wanted it that way now haha, to reply with this, im not in favor of the whole 30 thing just yet, im sure ill get used to it though like all the other changes through the years, but i always felt anything above 36 would 1. be to crowded as stated previously and 2. most gyms wouldnt be able to field them, even some of the large senior teams today. And i feel like the 36 was put into place to keep teams with 70 people from competiting with a team of 30, which was needed, because thats just regressing our sport to go back to an uncapped number of people. We need these rules so people don't laugh at us pretty much, because we arn't the only ones who need to understand the rules if we want to be taken seriously as a sport.

Now, isn't reason 2 you listed the same reason I want to move large to 30?

 

[we_stand_alone]

Now, isn't reason 2 you listed the same reason I want to move large to 30?

of course, and i understand that reason, i just wish that they would have gone ahead and made it only 30 instead of having medium and large, that's where i feel we are making the wrong turn. These teams are going to step up into medium next season so of course large senior will be gotten rid of the next season, and then when shooting stars and cea and f5 go into medium there goes all of that medium competition back into small, or open 5, or international, or whatever it may be.

 

[King]

of course, and i understand that reason, i just wish that they would have gone ahead and made it only 30 instead of having medium and large, that's where i feel we are making the wrong turn. These teams are going to step up into medium next season so of course large senior will be gotten rid of the next season, and then when shooting stars and cea and f5 go into medium there goes all of that medium competition back into small, or open 5, or international, or whatever it may be.

All but the last part I disagree. People don't avoid large because the top 3 spots are hard to attain. People avoid large because they feel like they have to have 36 to compete. Its not the teams in large that scare people off, its the fact that if you go in large with 28 you feel like you aren't even playing the same game. So, better to go in small where even though there is more competition and more teams comparable to the big 3 (lets see, this year in small there is Orange, Cali, Panthers, Champion Cheer, CEA, World Cup, Cheer Force... I could go on) BUT you can field a team that is competitive.

Its not the teams in large that are intimidating as the amount of people you need to get together to at least feel competitive in the division.

What 30 does is allow anyone with more than 20 people to feel competitive in that division, hence, more teams.

 

[King]

Ill say it another way. If large senior was guaranteed to stay around (Size wise) for 4 more years, but we were also keeping medium, and the big 3 jumped from large to medium and dominated, medium would STILL have way more teams than large.

 

[michelesagem]

i know at this point its a lost cause and would be impossible for many people to field but i LOVED the way it looked when we did have 40 on my team for a year, mostly since its more stunts and spreading out the floor, we looked pretty impressive with that many people but weren't really all there tumbling wise (not that i remember?)

 

[heart33]

You mean between 4th and 5th ........haha

Yeah, give the "middles" some love, not just the Big 3. I don't think anyone can really mess up and globe.

2010 LARGE SENIOR 5 SCORES:
Cheer Extreme- 177.75
World Cup- 176.333333
Cheer Athletics- 172.00
Maryland Twisters- 169.66667
Maryland Marlins- 166.08333
FAME- 161.91667
FCA Gems- 159.50000
Pittsburgh Superstars- 157.083333​

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Maybe this will clear it up. I think there should be only two divisions, small and large at 20 and 30. But the argument for 36 has been people need enough places for athletes to help their gym stay profitable. I ask anyone who is for 36 to tell me why it should be 36 and NOT 40 or unlimited. Why should we cap divisions? Why should we not push the limit up to 40.

I am curious to hear the argument against more than 36, but staying right at 36. If we started a campaign to push large to 40 or unlimited people on the floor what is the argument to NOT do that.

(I ask if you are a person for large going to 30 that you don't state your case... I already agree with you).

Make small 0-24 and large 25-as many as you want if you insist on 2 divisions. Let Kyle Busch put 2000 hp engine in his car. Remove the salary cap in the NBA and NFL. If someone can put 60 on the floor and make it look good, beat them with 25 again if you insist on 2 divisions. You argue that 20 is the essence of the sport, make one division and beat 36 with 20. Beat 50 with 10. I'm a purist. Rules may have good intent but they also support agendas. When you are trying to explain why there should be multiple divisions with arbitrary numbers of athletes, you are going to get a lot of disagreement.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Yeah, give the "middles" some love, not just the Big 3. I don't think anyone can really mess up and globe.

2010 LARGE SENIOR 5 SCORES:​

Cheer Extreme- 177.75​

World Cup- 176.333333​

Cheer Athletics- 172.00​

Maryland Twisters- 169.66667​

Maryland Marlins- 166.08333​

FAME- 161.91667​

FCA Gems- 159.50000​

Pittsburgh Superstars- 157.083333​

They all can win on any given day and you are correct, they all deserve our respect for their effort. I hope there will be more.

 

[King]

Make small 0-24 and large 25-as many as you want if you insist on 2 divisions. Let Kyle Busch put 2000 hp engine in his car. Remove the salary cap in the NBA and NFL. If someone can put 60 on the floor and make it look good, beat them with 25 again if you insist on 2 divisions. You argue that 20 is the essence of the sport, make one division and beat 36 with 20. Beat 50 with 10. I'm a purist. Rules may have good intent but they also support agendas. When you are trying to explain why there should be multiple divisions with arbitrary numbers of athletes, you are going to get a lot of disagreement.

OK, then can you explain to me why 36 instead of 48?

 

[cheerinfo]

Make small 0-24 and large 25-as many as you want if you insist on 2 divisions. Let Kyle Busch put 2000 hp engine in his car. Remove the salary cap in the NBA and NFL. If someone can put 60 on the floor and make it look good, beat them with 25 again if you insist on 2 divisions. You argue that 20 is the essence of the sport, make one division and beat 36 with 20. Beat 50 with 10. I'm a purist. Rules may have good intent but they also support agendas. When you are trying to explain why there should be multiple divisions with arbitrary numbers of athletes, you are going to get a lot of disagreement.

You seem to get almost angry on this topic. If this sport is to thrive and build competition, I am not sure why you are so adamant about keeping a division that will, at most, have 3 teams in it this season. I have no idea how that promotes growth and more competition in this sport. We needed to cut down on how many divisions we had across the board, and instead, they added ANOTHER youth 5 division and a third all girl division now. It makes no sense to me. Let's face it, in all probability, for the 2012-2013 there will be youth 5 restricted and all girl will be back to 2 divisions, small (up to 20) and large (up to 30 or 32). I just don't see the flip side to this situation that you so passionately defend. Not getting mean about it, but I really just cannot see the benefit in the short or long term. JMO, but there it is.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

OK, then can you explain to me why 36 instead of 48?

I just did. You asked someone to explain why stopping at 36 I believe. I say if they want to put 200 of the mat, let them and see if they can win. Ridiculous, absolutety, the owners, choreographers, teams and gyms will get the number right for them and put it out and adjust. Theoretically, my position is going to be easier to support. Now practical, another argument. Your question was theorectical.

 

[King]

I just did. You asked someone to explain why stopping at 36 I believe. I say if they want to put 200 of the mat, let them and see if they can win. Ridiculous, absolutety, the owners, choreographers, teams and gyms will get the number right for them and put it out and adjust. Theoretically, my position is going to be easier to support. Now practical, another argument. Your question was theorectical.

How? You didn't mention any hard arguments for 36. I can give you a ton of arguments for 30 over 36 (and 48!). I am saying what is the hard fact argument of not increasing 36 to 48 without deflecting and saying 'Why not just use 70 and let kyle busch ride a rocket powered monkey driven sled on the salt flats'.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

You seem to get almost angry on this topic. If this sport is to thrive and build competition, I am not sure why you are so adamant about keeping a division that will, at most, have 3 teams in it this season. I have no idea how that promotes growth and more competition in this sport. We needed to cut down on how many divisions we had across the board, and instead, they added ANOTHER youth 5 division and a third all girl division now. It makes no sense to me. Let's face it, in all probability, for the 2012-2013 there will be youth 5 restricted and all girl will be back to 2 divisions, small (up to 20) and large (up to 30 or 32). I just don't see the flip side to this situation that you so passionately defend. Not getting mean about it, but I really just cannot see the benefit in the short or long term. JMO, but there it is.

I'm not angry. Do you have any data that suggests your assumptions are correct concerning these changes? I would say that CheerSport has proven that if you increase options in teams, levels, numbers and divisions that you will get MORE TEAMS paying entry fees. I don't think anyone will argue that CheerSport is the best Level 5 competion, which may be the more important question for these teams specifically. You may be right, I think if everyone involved feels like it is the best thing to do, it's ok to try and see what happens. However, sometimes when things are not working out, it is very hard to adjust after the changes. Back to the NASCAR, which I really am not a fan of but clearly is a endeavor (not a sport to me) that has micromanaged almost every aspect of the sport. Jimmy Johnson probably likes the rules like they are right now winning 5 in a row. I suspect so do the gyms thriving under the present rules in cheer. But NASCAR has a lot of empty seats and I think to some extent because of the dedication to leveling the playing field and limiting choices. Proceed with, but do so with caution. I'm clearly in a minority on this subject, but sometimes opposing voices can be beneficial.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Why not just use 70 and let kyle busch ride a rocket powered monkey driven sled on the salt flats'.

I'm ok with that. The fans in the stands may get upset but the TV ratings, where the money is, will skyrocket. I argue 48 or 70 on the bases of freedom of choice and letting the market decide vs arbitrary rules that you may feel you can support.

 

[King]

@StarshipTrooper I would just like a discussion where your answer is not reductio ad absurdum