All-Star Cali Aces Jamz Incident

[King]

I don't think I have ever seen or heard of someone in the middle of a tumbling pass stop in the middle of a skill when the music ends. Maybe not finishing their pass, but never like stopping in the middle of a back handspring and landing on their head. Same with a stunt, but I can see how it might go wrong with baskets.

We had our senior 2 last year at CHEERSPORT on day 2 the announcer started announcing in the middle of the pyramid what announcers normally say after a routine is over, but only for a second or two. Well, onee group of the pyramid didnt go up (one girl didnt throw because she thought she was supposed to stop) and it almost went and took out an other group. Notice I said almost. Did it end badly? Nah, no one was hurt. But yes it can affect people. A 3 second fade out should take care of that.

 

[Ashley]

This is the only part of this incident that I'm concerned/confused about...we all know cheerleading is 100% team oriented. If a SINGLE member of our team is injured in any way and leaves the floor, some portion of our routine will not be able to hit properly and safely. Bottom line -- music needs to be stopped the moment ANYONE leaves the floor or is unable to continue the routine for any reason. Heck, competitions run behind for SO many ridiculous reasons...an injury is for sure one I wouldn't be complaining about.

This isn't an issue that a coach or EP should have to "decide" on. It should be mandated in our rules that if any athlete on the performance surface is unable to continue the routine, the music is immediately stopped. PERIOD.

I'm torn on this, though I absolutely see your point. Last year at Worlds we had a guy land his double and tear his ACL. He crawled off the mat and we kept going on, oblivious. All we had left was a back tuck toss section and the dance. He was a base for one of the tosses, but the front spot stepped in and was ready to base it right as the music got cut off. We absolutely could have finished the routine without him. Instead, they cut the music (which they were right to do), and we had to go back and compete again - but doing the whole routine again without him, we weren't allowed to mark up to where we stopped. We had 20 minutes to replace him in EVERYTHING. They said they'd understand if we couldn't do skills, but we needed to do what we could to the best of our ability. We're level 6 and old, having to compete again was miserable, we all just wanted to be done (though we hit our best routine of the season without him, and one stunt group had to do their whole section without a hands on!)

I know that we're kind of the exception in this, and letting everyone else carry on in a routine could be very dangerous (expecting a catcher to be there when he or she is actually hurt), but I don't know that I necessarily agree with a blanket rule about it.

 

[Mclovin]

I'm torn on this, though I absolutely see your point. Last year at Worlds we had a guy land his double and tear his ACL. He crawled off the mat and we kept going on, oblivious. All we had left was a back tuck toss section and the dance. He was a base for one of the tosses, but the front spot stepped in and was ready to base it right as the music got cut off. We absolutely could have finished the routine without him. Instead, they cut the music (which they were right to do), and we had to go back and compete again - but doing the whole routine again without him, we weren't allowed to mark up to where we stopped. We had 20 minutes to replace him in EVERYTHING. They said they'd understand if we couldn't do skills, but we needed to do what we could to the best of our ability. We're level 6 and old, having to compete again was miserable, we all just wanted to be done (though we hit our best routine of the season without him, and one stunt group had to do their whole section without a hands on!)

I know that we're kind of the exception in this, and letting everyone else carry on in a routine could be very dangerous (expecting a catcher to be there when he or she is actually hurt), but I don't know that I necessarily agree with a blanket rule about it.

No offense, but in my personal coaching opinion, that front spot stepping in and basing that basket on a whim would have been dangerous. ESPECIALLY in a flipping basket. I would never condone that. What if he/she threw harder or not hard enough and the basket went crooked ... I could think of too many things that could go wrong in a scenario like that. Cutting the music was the right thing to do. Now being told you HAD to throw all skills as much as possible up to the point where the injury occurred?? I'm scratching my head on that one...

 

[Ashley]

No offense, but in my personal coaching opinion, that front spot stepping in and basing that basket on a whim would have been dangerous. ESPECIALLY in a flipping basket. I would never condone that. What if he/she threw harder or not hard enough and the basket went crooked ... I could think of too many things that could go wrong in a scenario like that. Cutting the music was the right thing to do. Now being told you HAD to throw all skills as much as possible up to the point where the injury occurred?? I'm scratching my head on that one...

It makes sense. If you only have to mark the routine up to the injury, you're not as winded and can better execute. Obviously there's going to be things you can't throw, and the person said the judges would understand that. But we had to perform our routine to the best of our ability.

I just think that most of the time, it should be up to the coach or music person to cut the music. Our coach knows the routine and knows what we could do without that person - though admittedly, you're probably right that in our case the toss shouldn't have gone and I'm not sure the flyer would have thrown it.

In certain circumstances, like a collision, the EP should be able to step in themselves too.

 

[Mclovin]

I see your point, but most of us could throw a back tuck toss in our sleep - it's easier than a toe touch.

It makes sense. If you only have to mark the routine up to the injury, you're not as winded and can better execute. Obviously there's going to be things you can't throw, and the person said the judges would understand that. But we had to perform our routine to the best of our ability.

I'm sure you could. But on a whim, in the middle of a routine and it hasn't been practiced or warmed up...very dangerous. I wouldn't want my daughter being the flyer in that basket.

I'm still baffled at the insistence that you do the routine full out as much as possible. I'm going to go look at the rules on that one...

 

[Ashley]

I'm sure you could. But on a whim, in the middle of a routine and it hasn't been practiced or warmed up...very dangerous. I wouldn't want my daughter being the flyer in that basket.

I'm still baffled at the insistence that you do the routine full out as much as possible. I'm going to go look at the rules on that one...

To be honest I don't think the flyer would have done it anyway.

I'm not sure if it's a worlds specific thing - I was telling people on our team who were new to cheering that we'd probably just mark the routine up to that point. I was really surprised when that wasn't the case. I think other people have talked about it here on the board, but I wouldn't know what to search for.

 

[Mclovin]

C. INJURY
1. The only persons that may stop a routine for injury are: a)
competition officials, b) the gym owner / head coach from the
team performing or c) an injured individual.
2. The competition officials will determine if the team will be
allowed to perform at a later time. If the competition officials
allow a routine to be performed at a later time, the spot in the
schedule where the re-performance is to take place is at the
sole discretion of competition officials. The team may
(pending the injury’s impact on the routine) perform the
routine again in its entirety, but will be evaluated ONLY
from the point where the interruption occurred.
3. If a team needs to re-perform a routine but fails to do the
routine in its entirety, (example: throwing back tucks
instead of the full twist thrown in the original
performance) then this team will receive a six (6.0) point
penalty AND receive a score based on the lower level
performance.

UNBELIEVABLE!! I had no idea!! Do any other competitions require this?? Because I'm pretty sure at other competitions the team just marks through the first part then continues from where the injury occurred...

 

[Tosh]

Point flyer (one of the ones with the gash in her head, I believe) went on. She was involved in the crash. I'm not sure if the girl with the torn ACL went on or not. (people already said this before I hit post, it was an easy mistake to make though with everyone running around the mat, no worries!) But I agree NEliteSteven , if the athlete feels well enough to go on, they will go on. If they don't, they will stop. If the athlete is on the ground and cannot get up, the EP will stop the music. If the athlete gets up to continue, they will let it go on. They had no idea how bad the incident was until the team got off the floor. They probably assumed the athlete was fine since she flew point and did all of her tumbling passes. If you saw someone get up from a collision and do all that, I doubt anyone would stop the music. You'd stop it until you saw blood, right? Until you saw how bad that injury actually is. Which is exactly what they did.

I think everyone is making a huge deal about this. People got hurt, they got the medical attention they required and they are/will be OK. The ones who couldn't go on removed themselves from the floor and the ones who thought they could go on, did. Does USASF need to re-evalute safety protocols? Probably. But this specific situation has been blown out of proportions. :chillpill:

Wow! where do I begin....I will make this short and to the point.
At the point in time of the collision it should have been stopped! No ifs ands or buts. "it was not stopped because the girl(s) appeared to be alright and kept going" REALLY?.....there should have been no continuing after they crashed.....it is better to be safe than sorry!

 

[Tosh]

The instances that pop in mind are: middle of tumbling passes (though the continuing of music during a tumbling pass could be bad too), middle of a stunt section, or middle of a basket toss before being thrown. I would always try to cut the music at a natural section so that no one would halfway do a skill (never cut it off mid standing back tuck, for instance, so that no one stopped executing their skill halfway). I do like the idea of fading out the music. Possibly a 3 second fade? Quick enough to stop, but not sudden enough to jolt people mid skill?

I disagree with this. Stopping the music at any point, regardless of what skill is being thrown, the skill will be completed then stop. No one is going to toss a basket and not catch because the music stopped....In 12 years and constantly stopping the music during practice because some one messed up, has never resulted in an injury. The kids know what to do when the music stops, it is part of their every day practicing, especially at this level

 

[King]

I disagree with this. Stopping the music at any point, regardless of what skill is being thrown, the skill will be completed then stop. No one is going to toss a basket and not catch because the music stopped....In 12 years and constantly stopping the music during practice because some one messed up, has never resulted in an injury. The kids know what to do when the music stops, it is part of their every day practicing, especially at this level

Agree to disagree.

 

[Tosh]

Agree to disagree.

Agreed and thank you.....not saying that a 3 sec fade is not a good idea, but until all the regulations, if any results from this incident, flat out stopping the music could not hurt.

 

[King]

Agreed and thank you.....not saying that a 3 sec fade is not a good idea, but until all the regulations, if any results from this incident, flat out stopping the music could not hurt.

I believe flat out stopping the music is better than not stopping, and a 3 second fade is better than stopping.

 

[Ashley]

I disagree with this. Stopping the music at any point, regardless of what skill is being thrown, the skill will be completed then stop. No one is going to toss a basket and not catch because the music stopped....In 12 years and constantly stopping the music during practice because some one messed up, has never resulted in an injury. The kids know what to do when the music stops, it is part of their every day practicing, especially at this level

My coach has a habit of talking in the middle of counting - "1,2, something, something, 5,6,7,8." He also has a bad habit of doing it on the exact counts we're supposed to pop down own - including from 2 1/2 high pyramids. We've never had an issues with it, but it has resulted in a few sloppy pop downs. It's not exactly the same, but it is disconcerting.

There's a difference between immediate and waiting two counts for a skill to finish. I'm sure you don't cut the music when your athletes are in the middle of a back tuck. And in that basket example, I'm sure your bases will catch the flyer, but if I was about to do my skill as the music cut out, I might start flipping and not finish. I've had coaches cut music right as you're about to pop for a double or throw a basket and I absolutely hate it. Maybe my bases won't throw all the way for a double - usually I'll straight cradle in that case if I catch it in time. But I hate, hate, hate it.

 

[FierceandFearless]

I disagree with this. Stopping the music at any point, regardless of what skill is being thrown, the skill will be completed then stop. No one is going to toss a basket and not catch because the music stopped....In 12 years and constantly stopping the music during practice because some one messed up, has never resulted in an injury. The kids know what to do when the music stops, it is part of their every day practicing, especially at this level

If I may... and I do see your points and respect them and agree with them in some ways... but it's not so much that they will simply "not catch".. I think it's more that they may catch unsafely, or the flyer who is executing the toss in the air may freak out (so say, it was level 6 and they did tuck baskets) and stop pulling in the inverted position and come down in an unsafe position... or say a kick double and because the music stops the flyer hears the music stop and freaks out and comes down loose, arms flailing, etc. Competition is nothing like practice. When you're on that stage, everything is such a rush, between the adrenaline, lights, loud music, the crowds, that you just don't think like you do while you're practicing. In practice you almost expect to hear the music stop at least twice during practice so coaches can make corrections. You don't expect it or listen for it during comps... it's instant confusion because most athletes don't expect to have injuries on the floor. It's always, "we got this, nothing will go wrong." mainly because we're trained to think and prepare ourselves like that. It's a completely different feeling when you're on the mats at the gym and on the mats on stage. I'm not saying that cutting music off at an unsafe time in practice is okay and that it couldn't cause injury then... I'm just pointing that out from an athletes perspective. Just my opinion.

 

[5-6-7-8]

I like the 3 second fade, and will add to it a special tone that lets the athletes know to stop. (Otherwise I fear with just a fade, athletes will continue the routine not knowing if it is a music malfunction or an injury.)

And whatever is eventually decided can be practiced in the gym so athletes know to safely stop performing (like a fire drill.)