All-Star Cheer Music & Copyright Laws...

[xtremeteal4life]

now, i will not speak on SOPA, because i have not done enough homework to be educated on it, but i will speak on behalf of cheerleading music producers in general. cheer music producers are providing a "service" and that is all. we are paid to arrange and reconstruct music to be used for particular choreographed performance. all copyrights are still held by the original artists and we are not making money off of the use or broadcast of their copyrighted material. we are being paid for our time and expertise as a producer, and that is it. here again, i reiterate, we are not "selling" music, we are "selling" a service to arrange music.

the place where people get in trouble with copyrights is when they use copyrighted material for their own personal gain. to be technical, the burden of adhering to copyright laws and paying royalties within the cheerleading industry falls upon the individual gyms to a small degree, and to the event producers in a big way. technically, a gym owner should have to pay royalties for playing music within their own gym for their teams and students. whether it is the radio, or a specifically mixed and arranged piece of cheer music, they are "broadcasting" that copyrighted material, for their customers, that they are technically making a profit off of. now as far as ASCAP and BMI are concerned, they would really have to choose wisely in which battles they want to fight. in my opinion, going after the individual gyms would be a tremendously unwise battle to pick, as they would be fighting with defendants with shallow pockets.

legally, if they ever chose to pick a fight, i would think that it would be with the industry at large - the people that are making real money off of the "broadcast" of this copyrighted material - the event producers. they are "broadcasting" this copyrighted material, in a public setting, for 1000's of people at a time, every weekend of the year, and blatantly making a profit off of its broadcast and display. now i cannot and will not speak on the behalf of any event producer, and how they choose to protect themselves at all of their events. i am sure that some of them have a blanket broadcast license through ASCAP & BMI and pay royalties to play whatever they want at their events. but if the music industry was to choose to pick this fight - i believe that it would start with the people with the deepest pockets, that are making the most money off of the broadcast of copyrighted material - the event producers. if you have ever attended UCA AllStar Nationals, or World's as a coach or gym owner - this is exactly what those highly annoying music sheets are all about in your registration packet. your team (and their music) has the potential to be broadcast around the world on ESPN. they make you provide extremely detailed information about your cheer music, and the copyrighted material that it contains. since they are "broadcasting" copyrighted material on TV, they owe royalties back to the licensing agencies of ASCAP & BMI for its use. here again, i do not speak on behalf of any event producers and how they handle their business - i am only illustrating how the cheer world relates to the music industry at large.

now, if this battle was to ever take place, it could potentially change the entire landscape of the competitive cheerleading industry. if the music industry saw fit to try and stop the use of copyrighted materials in competition cheerleading, then we are talking industry wide changes that would put a lot of things that we know and love today, back to square one, and force us to rebuild the industry in a different manner. obviously, the "powers that be" in the cheerleading industry would not let that happen without a huge fight. they would be forced to protect their stake and interest in the industry at all costs, and you can only imagine what a gigantic legal battle that would become.

moral of the story ... when seeking legal action - aim for the potential defendants with the deepest pockets first. that would go event producers, then individual gyms, and then finally music producers. for the music industry, what's the smarter fight to pick - the one with little ole me, or the one with Varsity, Jamfest, Cheersport, etc... i have researched extensively, and there is absolutely nothing illegal about what i do as a producer. as i have said a couple times before, i do not speak on behalf anyone else, in any other aspect of this industry - i am just trying to shed some light on how all of this cheerleading stuff pertains to the music industry in the outside world...

No, no, no, no...I'm sorry, but if you're in this business you must be fully aware that selling to "rearrange" someone's music to adhere to choreography and then SELLING it is still technically illegal bc you are selling someone else a mix which contains copyrighted material, of which you are fully aware, as you've already mentioned. YOU are making the most direct profit off of the artists, not anyone else. I cannot make a mix tape with copyrighted material and SELL it to another individual, are you serious?!

My father even gave me an example over the phone about a record COMPANY who GAVE music producer's samples of artists music for that specific reason and then turned right around and sued the music producer's and WON. Surely you must be aware of that?

Have you researched and consulted w/an attorney who specifically deals with copyright law? Just bc you interpret something to be correct does not make it so. I am telling you as an absolute fact that it is illegal. It is NOT illegal to BROADCAST a mix tape that contains sampled music, it is only illegal for the artist to sell it if they have not paid for the right to do so. Trust me...otherwise my dad's stations would be in a lot of trouble and considering he HAS to know the law or it's his *ss, I'll trust his expertise (and his company's lawyer's) when they say it is illegal. Please do not pass around information like that when it isn't correct. Please. Now I (nor my dad) could care less what you do and what the other music producers in cheerleading do (as in, he's not concerned if you're breaking the law..he's not like that), but to say it's legal is completely false and your broadcast "law" is so far from accurate it's not even funny. Like I said, I will reiterate that my father has been in the music/radio business for ~37 years and is widely known and respected within his field. I trust he knows the law bc otherwise he would have already been fried. He knows what he can get away with and what boundaries he can push w/o consequence and which ones he can't

 

[xtremeteal4life]

As far as the big companies, don't you think they get approval to air something on ESPN (Worlds) to cover their butts? Smaller EP, maybe not so much...but the really big ones, I would be very surprised if they didn't find a way to cover their butts just in case.

 

[xtremeteal4life]

Thank you... good explanation of the mixer side of the biz

except it's incorrect :confused:


I'll be happy to provide anyone via pm contact info if they really need the clarification.

 

[cheersolutions]

No, no, no, no...I'm sorry, but if you're in this business you must be fully aware that selling to "rearrange" someone's music to adhere to choreography and then SELLING it is still technically illegal bc you are selling someone else a mix which contains copyrighted material, of which you are fully aware, as you've already mentioned. YOU are making the most direct profit off of the artists, not anyone else. I cannot make a mix tape with copyrighted material and SELL it to another individual, are you serious?!

My father even gave me an example over the phone about a record COMPANY who GAVE music producer's samples of artists music for that specific reason and then turned right around and sued the music producer's and WON. Surely you must be aware of that?

Have you researched and consulted w/an attorney who specifically deals with copyright law? Just bc you interpret something to be correct does not make it so. I am telling you as an absolute fact that it is illegal. It is NOT illegal to BROADCAST a mix tape that contains sampled music, it is only illegal for the artist to sell it if they have not paid for the right to do so. Trust me...otherwise my dad's stations would be in a lot of trouble and considering he HAS to know the law or it's his *ss, I'll trust his expertise (and his company's lawyer's) when they say it is illegal. Please do not pass around information like that when it isn't correct. Please. Now I (nor my dad) could care less what you do and what the other music producers in cheerleading do (as in, he's not concerned if you're breaking the law..he's not like that), but to say it's legal is completely false and your broadcast "law" is so far from accurate it's not even funny. Like I said, I will reiterate that my father has been in the music/radio business for ~37 years and is widely known and respected within his field. I trust he knows the law bc otherwise he would have already been fried. He knows what he can get away with and what boundaries he can push w/o consequence and which ones he can't

you can have your sources, and feel free to believe them, and i can have my sources, and feel free to believe them. as a matter of fact, i have spoken directly with ASCAP and BMI, and they have absolutely no problem with what i do as a cheerleading music producer. their licensing and legal departments agree, that what i do is not illegal. i have spoken with an attorney who deals with copyright law, and again, they find no fault in what we do.

of course, there are a zillion different instances to look at as example, and there are a zillion different angles to look at this from. i am not going to try and lecture you (as you have done to me) and get into every single nuance of the highly complicated worlds of both cheerleading and music. i am aware that there are many, many possible battles and arguments that could be made in this arena. i am aware of the laws all the way down to the individual "sample" that i use in the making of these mixes. i am aware that the artists retain their rights to their material, even though those samples are in my mix. i am aware that i retain the rights to my own voice and every voiceover that i record in a mix. and ... i am aware that every single bit of this is up for different interpretations depending upon whom you ask.

i was merely laying out the "big picture", based on my knowledge and experience in both the cheer music industry as well as the mainstream recording industry. if you feel that you have information that is more pertinent, and more specific to this industry, then please by all means feel free to share it in this public forum. everyone would probably stand to benefit from it if you do. but please do not rudely charge in with the "are you serious?!", and the "surely you must be aware of that?", and the "so far from accurate it's not even funny" statements. my opinions and knowledge are mine to express. you certainly have your yours and are free to express them as well. i will not participate in any "measuring contest", or the "my dad will kick your dad's butt" form of arguing to try and prove who knows more. i will merely wish you a good day and hope you have success in whatever you do.

i do not pretend to be a copyright attorney, or over advice to anyone on how to conduct their lives or their businesses. i merely give a little real-world insight, and a lot of years of experience and knowledge in this specific industry. i don't think that anyone is trying to see what they "can get away with", or trying to find "what boundaries they can push w/o consequence and which ones they can't". we are all along for the ride in a relatively new industry that is growing by leaps and bounds everyday. there are going to be hurdles and problems to confront along the way, and the industry as a whole will have to handle these as they arise. hopefully everyone can see the positive things that the industry provides in lots of areas, and continue to watch this amazing growth...

 

[ztaprincess]

It will only take 1 artist to take down music mixers. Take Prince for example, he has sued people several times for using his music without permission. Gym Tyme Pink is using Kiss by Prince as their dance song (and I absolutely LOVE it). If Prince wanted to he could sue them for using his work without his permission. He is one artist I would not want to make angry either, heck he won't even let the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame use his stuff when he is inducted into it.
You may call what you are doing a service, but that service is making you money by taking music that is not yours and rearranging it for someone else. If this was taken to court you would not win your case. I have actually talked to a law professor about cheer music because and they were shocked that they can get away with doing this.

When I was in high school the Color Guard had their coach/instructor make their music every year but still had to pay for him to use that music so that it didn't come back to bite them in the butt.

Youtube partners (beauty gurus, comedians, ect.) are not allowed to use clips of other people's songs in their videos because they are being paid in their videos. They are providing videos to entertain or to help with makeup application yet are still legally not allowed to use Adele or Britney Spears in their videos because they earn money from them.

 

[xtremeteal4life]

you can have your sources, and feel free to believe them, and i can have my sources, and feel free to believe them. as a matter of fact, i have spoken directly with ASCAP and BMI, and they have absolutely no problem with what i do as a cheerleading music producer. their licensing and legal departments agree, that what i do is not illegal. i have spoken with an attorney who deals with copyright law, and again, they find no fault in what we do.

of course, there are a zillion different instances to look at as example, and there are a zillion different angles to look at this from. i am not going to try and lecture you (as you have done to me) and get into every single nuance of the highly complicated worlds of both cheerleading and music. i am aware that there are many, many possible battles and arguments that could be made in this arena. i am aware of the laws all the way down to the individual "sample" that i use in the making of these mixes. i am aware that the artists retain their rights to their material, even though those samples are in my mix. i am aware that i retain the rights to my own voice and every voiceover that i record in a mix. and ... i am aware that every single bit of this is up for different interpretations depending upon whom you ask.

i was merely laying out the "big picture", based on my knowledge and experience in both the cheer music industry as well as the mainstream recording industry. if you feel that you have information that is more pertinent, and more specific to this industry, then please by all means feel free to share it in this public forum. everyone would probably stand to benefit from it if you do. but please do not rudely charge in with the "are you serious?!", and the "surely you must be aware of that?", and the "so far from accurate it's not even funny" statements. my opinions and knowledge are mine to express. you certainly have your yours and are free to express them as well. i will not participate in any "measuring contest", or the "my dad will kick your dad's butt" form of arguing to try and prove who knows more. i will merely wish you a good day and hope you have success in whatever you do.

i do not pretend to be a copyright attorney, or over advice to anyone on how to conduct their lives or their businesses. i merely give a little real-world insight, and a lot of years of experience and knowledge in this specific industry. i don't think that anyone is trying to see what they "can get away with", or trying to find "what boundaries they can push w/o consequence and which ones they can't". we are all along for the ride in a relatively new industry that is growing by leaps and bounds everyday. there are going to be hurdles and problems to confront along the way, and the industry as a whole will have to handle these as they arise. hopefully everyone can see the positive things that the industry provides in lots of areas, and continue to watch this amazing growth...

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude at all...but when you pass around information that is incorrect and someone believes you and perhaps decides to start a business of their own or base information that could potentially cause them detriment, I think it's wrong. You are passing this information along that is incorrect and you even act smug about it; like when you said, "who are they gonna pick on, little ole me" or the big guys? You fully acknowledged that the music you "alter" is copyrighted and you are obviously aware that what you're doing isn't technically legal, by saying "who it would serve them (record companies) the most to sue. You said research....your research. I'm not inclined to believe you when you say that you have "contacted" (not retained) an attorney and/or have personally contacted ASCAP and BMI, because I do actually know the exact law and how they interpret it at the moment regarding what you do. If you consulted an attorney and he/she has told you otherwise, I would ask for my money back. If you feel so comfortable w/the information you're passing along as accurate, then you would have no problem if I contacted the RIAA right? See, you forgot to mention them. For anyone who wants to know the RIAA is a group that represents the music industry in the form of collective rights management (aka, the licensing of copyright and royalty rights) and also certifying albums in gold, platinum, etc. Also, you expect me to believe that the ASCAP, the same organization who started requesting many websites pay an embedding fee for YouTube videos, despite the fact that YouTube already pays a licensing fee, the same company who demanded iTunes to pay for streaming a quick 30 second preview clip of the music prior to purchasing it, the same organization who tried to hold the cell phone companies liable for ringtones, said that they don't have a problem with you directly making profit from selling their copyrighted material to other people?

I did tell you exactly what know, I did share exactly what I know...which is that it is technically illegal. It is not illegal to make a mixed tape yourself (provided you owned/purchased the original music first), it is not illegal for radio stations to play one of Lil Wayne's "underground" songs (songs that do not appear on any of his albums, are not available for legal purchase digitally, online, etc., that may or may not contain sampled music) that contains sampled music....which is broadcasting. All 12 of his stations are considered to be "broadcasting" music in the manner which you noted earlier. I will absolutely clarify that I have no idea w/regards to television broadcasting as to the way the law works and/or is interpreted. However, I do know about music bc it is my dad's job to know. He has to know, or else he would be out of a job. His hip-hop station has had a mix show every weekend for the past 20 years. So I know it's ok for you technically make the tapes and for them to even be heard by others. It is absolutely not illegal for a gym owner to play a mixed tape for their gym bc of broadcasting laws, by your logic, a gym owner couldn't play their own CD's bc they'd be "broadcasting" them (another example of why I got upset by your "facts" regarding the law, bc they're not facts and it could cause loads of gym owners...especially smaller ones, to get spooked bc they believed you).

As far as paying for your services, a gym owner (probably with no extensive knowledge regarding the law compared to you) would most likely assume that you, as a music producer, are adhering to proper copyright laws. Considering that your job is to provide the music, that would seem logical. Just like I would expect my daughter's coach to know how to put a routine together that is competitive, a choreographer to provide choreography that is original (i.e., not a direct rip off), etc.

I'm sorry if I offended you, because that was honestly not my intention. I was rather incredulous after reading your post bc of the inaccurate information and the nonchalant attitude you seemed to portray regarding it. I don't want people to read it and accept it for fact, when it could come back to haunt them or cause problems for them, or scare them away from doing something that is perfectly legal (especially this). I truly would assume that as music producer who is fully aware of how things work bc they have done their research to know of those huge instances when music producers were sued by major record companies after giving them samples and then turning around and suing them. I also was struck by how naive you seemed regarding how much of a "fight" the cheerleading world give the record companies. The music industry would most certainly win any type of lawsuit in this arena based on the simple fact that it's illegal. Now do I want that? Of course not! Do I personally care that you are selling your mixes? No, I do not..I am aware that it is technically illegal, but I do not personally think it is that big of a deal. That is my personal opinion though, not the facts.. I hope we continue to fly under the radar bc I love cheer music and I would hate to see it change when, in my opinion, it really doesn't affect such a large percentage of the music industry at all...but, let's be real. They are greedy and they will attempt to find every way to make as much money as they possibly can. The ASCAP is a non-profit organization..and I already gave examples of their antics in the first paragraph of my reply. I truly don't mind what you do, but I was bothered by the inaccuracies and the potential fall out over them, as well as your "well it's not lil ole me they want" attitude. I apologize if it came across that harshly, as I meant not to offend you ok? I'm just trying to state the facts. If I didn't know for sure, I would have stated so (and always will...as it will usually start out, "feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but", etc.).

 

[canttouchthis]

i better stock up on my "free" music :)

 

[WorkToWin]

I hate this bill. Maybe we should move to China?

Maybe not China, but I'm down for Bangkok Thailand! ;)

 

[xtremeteal4life]

It will only take 1 artist to take down music mixers. Take Prince for example, he has sued people several times for using his music without permission. Gym Tyme Pink is using Kiss by Prince as their dance song (and I absolutely LOVE it). If Prince wanted to he could sue them for using his work without his permission. He is one artist I would not want to make angry either, heck he won't even let the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame use his stuff when he is inducted into it.
You may call what you are doing a service, but that service is making you money by taking music that is not yours and rearranging it for someone else. If this was taken to court you would not win your case. I have actually talked to a law professor about cheer music because and they were shocked that they can get away with doing this.

When I was in high school the Color Guard had their coach/instructor make their music every year but still had to pay for him to use that music so that it didn't come back to bite them in the butt.

Youtube partners (beauty gurus, comedians, ect.) are not allowed to use clips of other people's songs in their videos because they are being paid in their videos. They are providing videos to entertain or to help with makeup application yet are still legally not allowed to use Adele or Britney Spears in their videos because they earn money from them.

WHAT?!! :eek: Dang, even I didn't know that!! I do tend to know which artists are seriously anti-piracy (like Metallica..who would have thought)

Also, thanks for your insight as well. I'm not trying to start a war or be anti-cheer music! Good lord! I wish all music was free in my own perfect world and that artists just made music first and foremost bc of their love of music... *sigh

I just wanted to provide accurate answers for those asking.

 

[xtremeteal4life]

i better stock up on my "free" music :)

Or become friends w/me and I can send you promo music (which is free) ;)

 

[ztaprincess]

WHAT?!! :eek: Dang, even I didn't know that!! I do tend to know which artists are seriously anti-piracy (like Metallica..who would have thought)

Also, thanks for your insight as well. I'm not trying to start a war or be anti-cheer music! Good lord! I wish all music was free in my own perfect world and that artists just made music first and foremost bc of their love of music... *sigh

I just wanted to provide accurate answers for those asking.

Oh yeah I went to visit the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame a few summers ago because I am a huge Prince fan and he has zero items there. I asked someone that works there and they said that he refused to give any items for display. I think the only thing that was his was a magazine cover from Rollingstone or something. He is nasty about stuff when it comes to using anything that belongs to him which is why i would never want to have him against me. He has sued and threatened to sue several random people for using his music without permission.

It is something that I have been thinking about for a long time which is why it always bothers me when gyms get mad about their mixes being leaked when it is "theirs". I can understand them wanting it out when they are ready but really that mix doesn't belong to them it belongs to the people who own the music. I almost did my senior capstone project on this exact topic but decided last minute that people probably wouldn't have been that interested in it. Had the SOPA/PIPA bill been going through congress at the time I for sure would have went for it. Anyone doing their senior capstone and is a Poli Sci or Pre-Law major this is a great topic.

I was in middle school when Napster started and had it up until it became a pay site since then cheer music is the only type that I download without purchase. It just doesn't feel right, plus when I was in college my roommate freshman year had our internet shut off because she was caught downloading illegally.

 

[WorkToWin]

So hypothetically a music company could sue a large competition for large amounts (millions?), and then what? NCA or Cheersport or Jamfest is done and out of business?

 

[canttouchthis]

Or become friends w/me and I can send you promo music (which is free) ;)

lol what is promo music?

 

[xtremeteal4life]

lol what is promo music?

CD's given to station for prizes and music w/20 different songs on it (some are popular and some on the these CD's don't catch on)

Basically any CD from the station...They can be given away, but not sold.

 

[VTX]

I definitely agree with this. My mom teaches at a community college, and while she won't accept it as a source, she advocates it to get a beginning grasp on ideas, and where to go with it by looking at their references.

I have a professor who actually lets us use it as a source, but then again he teaches stuff so complicated you can tell whats correct and what's made up by random people, lol.