All-Star For The Judges

[Mr.Kevin]

I don't get to watch judges score cheer because I'm usually holed up in the warm-up area and then just dash out to watch a few teams if there is a break in the back. However, I DO get to watch gymnastics judges - both J.O. and college. Here's how I have seen them do it (right or wrong ... and they try to be discrete about it). They judge each routine as it comes up. Each gymnast has a number assigned for that meet. When they judges see a particularly great routine, they jot down their number and their score. When the next awesome routine is thrown, they go back to look at the score sheet of the other numbers - theoretically there is no "color of leotard" involved this way - and look at the content.

Example: "Number 216 averaged a 9.775 on floor and had a double Arabian and a full-in. I just watched number 231 and I have a 9.770 for her routine, but she did a double layout, and a front full transition before her double Arabian ... hmmmm ... I'm going to back off on one of my deductions and award 231 with a 9.780 average."

I don't have a clue if cheer judges do the same thing (and I don't know if gymnastics judges would admit to it) ... but it isn't a bad way to go. Awesomeness should be rewarded.

[And a side note, the only time that a gymnast has to declare a skill is if it has never been done in competition and they are petitioning to have the skill named.]

But in answer to your question, if WCSS does something amazing and innovative (and I think that they ALWAYS do!!) ... shoot(ing) yeah they should win!

 

[srt418]

I have been thinking about this since my coach first started going over our scores with us after competitions. We would do the same routine, get a great score, then get a worse score the next competition. We won both.

Here's what I think we should do. Feel free to criticize because I haven't thought too deeply in this:

1. Standardize "universal" skills. So right now (in level 5) full up, tick tocks, switch ups, double downs, and elite (flexible) body positions would be universal. Give each a base score. So switch ups would give a level 5 team a base score of 6 (only for example!). Full ups, base score of 7. Tick tocks, base score of __. And so on.

2. Then have a section for execution. Did they do that skill perfectly, or were there flaws? Give that portion of the scoresheet a certain amount of points allowed.

3. And to allow innovation and creativity in the sport, give a "bonus" section of the scoresheet. So squad double ups are not at all common. But WCSS did them awesome and flawless. Give WCSS a bonus. Since double ups aren't part of the "universal" skill set, but is clearly very difficult and was executed great, give them the extra points! The "bonus" portion would only be used for out of this world kind of skills. Have a comment box next to it justifying why the bonus points were awarded.

Clearly I haven't thought too much about this and I haven't gotten too much sleep lately. So this may or may not make much sense. haha.
That way we don't overload judges with information before a competition telling them what we're doing. And we don't have questionable scores because the judges felt they needed to give WCSS more points in jumps (for example) because they already gave F5 a 10 in stunting.

 

[King]

Ok, so I will throw a thought out here. Stunt creativity has plateaued because no matter how much new and harder stuff we try we can't get rewarded for it.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Ok, so I will throw a thought out here. Stunt creativity has plateaued because no matter how much new and harder stuff we try we can't get rewarded for it.

You better let Youth 5 start pushing the stunt envelope pretty soon then. But I agree. How about letting the teams do the other teams stunts in warmups and the one that hits the others stunts the best sets the high score of the range? Just kidding.

 

[King]

Or set a starting value, give each transition / entry a set value, and allow people to have no ceiling on the stunt score, or any score.

And youth 5 ain't pushing the stunt barrier. Teal is probably hitting the hardest stunt and besides the double down is level 4 skills legal. Doesn't make it less hard for youth, just means we need adjustments everywhere.

 

[Jennaw]

I judge for varsity. F5 and CEA maxed/nearly maxed out the score sheet on a Jam Fest score sheet. (totally different in my opinion) Rarely on a varsity score sheet is the difficulty maxed out (and when I say rarely, I mean I have never seen it in level 5). Execution is maxed out fairly common. The thing is with this AMAZING stunt sequence your talking about, even though they might "hit" this stunt sequence, realistically the chances of them maxing out the execution portion of the score sheet is little to none. 99 out of 100 times in this situation, the team with the lower difficulty, and perfect execution will out score the team with high difficulty and lower execution. This is what balances out the issue of "quantity/quality".

Keep in mind, like a person stated above, the only thing not level 4 about the stunt you stated is the dismount.
Maxing out the score sheet in level 5 (in my opinion) would require an amazing elite level full squad "true coed" stunt. This because you might can do a fullsquad double up, but the way to make this more difficult is to do this in a true coed stunt.
This is the same for all elite stunts, I feel that the max in the difficulty section is almost reserved for true coed stunts. It would not be fare to score a group tik-tok, the same as a TRUE partner stunt tik-tok.
So if WCSS was to perform this stunt sequence you stated earlier, they couldnt max out the difficulty portion of the varsity score sheet unless they did it with one girl basing and one girl spotting, which with an all girl squad is highly unlikely. Body positions also come into play when your talking difficulty. The more the better, but in the same case as earlier, also the more body positions, the more unlikely you are to max out the execution portion.

I also see that many of you are sayin that this is not in the standard elite stunting skills set.... It just so happens that it is. Right under all of those releases, full ups and tik-toks, is a statement that says "any other skill one might consider "elite".
that being the key to the future of stunts. If someone happens to pull something new and amazing out of the box, they will obviously score in the high end of the elite range.

 

[Jennaw]

But its all about expectations. Who would you consider the best tumbling team ever? Top Gun? Would they max out tumbling?

What if a team walked out RIGHT after TG went and did squad standing doubles. How does a judge know IF they dont know what is coming next?

The only way one could max out tumbling is for an entire squad to perform standing doubles, and all perform running specialty to doubles. and that would be just to max out difficulty. Obviously with this tumbling the execution is bound to drop from perfect.
The reason I can define this is because that the rules state a limit to the number of twist. Being that no matter what a Double is as good as it gets.

Judges NEVER score by the "what team is before, and what team is next" system as much as people like to say we do.
we score what is right in front of us. And lets give an example of a "perfect scenario"
TEAM 1: Standing squad doubles, running squad doubles executed perfect. = 9.0 difficulty, 1.0 execution (10.0)
TEAM 2: Standing squad doubles, running squad doubles executed perfect. = 9.0 difficulty, 1.0 execution (10.0)
Both did the same thing and maxed out the score sheet.
the deciding factors then would be the other portions of the score sheet in which are highly unlikely to max out.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Or set a starting value, give each transition / entry a set value, and allow people to have no ceiling on the stunt score, or any score.

And youth 5 ain't pushing the stunt barrier. Teal is probably hitting the hardest stunt and besides the double down is level 4 skills legal. Doesn't make it less hard for youth, just means we need adjustments everywhere.

You do know I was ribbing you a bit.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

I judge for varsity. F5 and CEA maxed/nearly maxed out the score sheet on a Jam Fest score sheet. (totally different in my opinion) Rarely on a varsity score sheet is the difficulty maxed out (and when I say rarely, I mean I have never seen it in level 5). Execution is maxed out fairly common. The thing is with this AMAZING stunt sequence your talking about, even though they might "hit" this stunt sequence, realistically the chances of them maxing out the execution portion of the score sheet is little to none. 99 out of 100 times in this situation, the team with the lower difficulty, and perfect execution will out score the team with high difficulty and lower execution. This is what balances out the issue of "quantity/quality".

Keep in mind, like a person stated above, the only thing not level 4 about the stunt you stated is the dismount.
Maxing out the score sheet in level 5 (in my opinion) would require an amazing elite level full squad "true coed" stunt. This because you might can do a fullsquad double up, but the way to make this more difficult is to do this in a true coed stunt.
This is the same for all elite stunts, I feel that the max in the difficulty section is almost reserved for true coed stunts. It would not be fare to score a group tik-tok, the same as a TRUE partner stunt tik-tok.
So if WCSS was to perform this stunt sequence you stated earlier, they couldnt max out the difficulty portion of the varsity score sheet unless they did it with one girl basing and one girl spotting, which with an all girl squad is highly unlikely. Body positions also come into play when your talking difficulty. The more the better, but in the same case as earlier, also the more body positions, the more unlikely you are to max out the execution portion.

I also see that many of you are sayin that this is not in the standard elite stunting skills set.... It just so happens that it is. Right under all of those releases, full ups and tik-toks, is a statement that says "any other skill one might consider "elite".
that being the key to the future of stunts. If someone happens to pull something new and amazing out of the box, they will obviously score in the high end of the elite range.

After reading the Jammy comments on the competition board, and this, I have a new best poster on the board, hands down. I do like the Varsity score sheet the best.

 

[Jennaw]

Let me add, the judges that are scoring level 5 teams are not idiots or newcomers to the sport.
We know what skills are hard, and the hardest way to perform the skill
There is NO set scoring values for stunts because the way a team performs an elite stunt can effect difficulty.
Which is harder?
Set with left foot in, press to extension, hop over to right foot tik-tok
or
Right Stretch, bring down to prep level, press and release tik-tok to Left Stretch
or
Right stretch, bases dip with knee's (and do not bend arms), release tik-tok to Left stretch

They are all tik-toks, but one of them is obviously harder. The easier way will be scored less difficult than the harder stunt.
Thats why they do not assign set values to stunts.
One stunt that has more ways of performing than a tik-tok is the full up (or any twist up) To get into the elite stunting range, you have to perform a full up to ext.
A team with a "fake" full up to extension will get into the elite scoring range as long as they start in a direction, and end in the same direction.
do they deserve the same amount of points as the team that does real full up to the top?

There are 100000000 different stunts, 1000000000 different ways to do them.
if we set a value to those stunts, then the people performing the harder version of the stunt will be the ones that get screwed over on difficulty and execution.

you can give ANY stunt scenario, and I, along with my fellow judge friends could give you the same difficulty score, give or take .1 ...and this variation is obsolete at cheer competitions because your division will all have the same stunt judge.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Let me add, the judges that are scoring level 5 teams are not idiots or newcomers to the sport.
We know what skills are hard, and the hardest way to perform the skill
There is NO set scoring values for stunts because the way a team performs an elite stunt can effect difficulty.
Which is harder?
Set with left foot in, press to extension, hop over to right foot tik-tok
or
Right Stretch, bring down to prep level, press and release tik-tok to Left Stretch
or
Right stretch, bases dip with knee's (and do not bend arms), release tik-tok to Left stretch

They are all tik-toks, but one of them is obviously harder. The easier way will be scored less difficult than the harder stunt.
Thats why they do not assign set values to stunts.
One stunt that has more ways of performing than a tik-tok is the full up (or any twist up) To get into the elite stunting range, you have to perform a full up to ext.
A team with a "fake" full up to extension will get into the elite scoring range as long as they start in a direction, and end in the same direction.
do they deserve the same amount of points as the team that does real full up to the top?

There are 100000000 different stunts, 1000000000 different ways to do them.
if we set a value to those stunts, then the people performing the harder version of the stunt will be the ones that get screwed over on difficulty and execution.

you can give ANY stunt scenario, and I, along with my fellow judge friends could give you the same difficulty score, give or take .1 ...and this variation is obsolete at cheer competitions because your division will all have the same stunt judge.

Further evidence of my assertion.

 

[Jennaw]

I have been thinking about this since my coach first started going over our scores with us after competitions. We would do the same routine, get a great score, then get a worse score the next competition. We won both.

Here's what I think we should do. Feel free to criticize because I haven't thought too deeply in this:

1. Standardize "universal" skills. So right now (in level 5) full up, tick tocks, switch ups, double downs, and elite (flexible) body positions would be universal. Give each a base score. So switch ups would give a level 5 team a base score of 6 (only for example!). Full ups, base score of 7. Tick tocks, base score of __. And so on.

2. Then have a section for execution. Did they do that skill perfectly, or were there flaws? Give that portion of the scoresheet a certain amount of points allowed.

3. And to allow innovation and creativity in the sport, give a "bonus" section of the scoresheet. So squad double ups are not at all common. But WCSS did them awesome and flawless. Give WCSS a bonus. Since double ups aren't part of the "universal" skill set, but is clearly very difficult and was executed great, give them the extra points! The "bonus" portion would only be used for out of this world kind of skills. Have a comment box next to it justifying why the bonus points were awarded.

Clearly I haven't thought too much about this and I haven't gotten too much sleep lately. So this may or may not make much sense. haha.
That way we don't overload judges with information before a competition telling them what we're doing. And we don't have questionable scores because the judges felt they needed to give WCSS more points in jumps (for example) because they already gave F5 a 10 in stunting.

-The answer to you number 1 is above
-As for your number 2, We have an execution score, Max 1.0 and in level 5 the judges are VERY critical of this One point.
-for you number 3, we do have a "bonus" section, and that section would be overall performance, and creativity. This is where we award points for the entire routine, its could be stunts, it could be jumps, it could be because a girl danced like shakira on the front row. This section is where the team is really rewarded. We take into consideration the crowd appeal, energy, and confidence as a team and anything that might of really made that team shine.

 

[King]

You do know I was ribbing you a bit.

Now I do. Y5 seems to strike a cord with quite a few people.

 

[cheercoachz]

**stands on chair and applauds** Jennaw, you had me at hello. LOL!!! But seriously, thank you for that breakdown. I think it helps us all to chill out and accept our placing knowing that you guys have such a hard job and work at it so earnestly. Honestly, I don't know how you don't run screaming from the arena after hearing "Firework" and "Only Girl (in the World)" a hundred times a competition. :)

 

[srt418]

-The answer to you number 1 is above
-As for your number 2, We have an execution score, Max 1.0 and in level 5 the judges are VERY critical of this One point.
-for you number 3, we do have a "bonus" section, and that section would be overall performance, and creativity. This is where we award points for the entire routine, its could be stunts, it could be jumps, it could be because a girl danced like shakira on the front row. This section is where the team is really rewarded. We take into consideration the crowd appeal, energy, and confidence as a team and anything that might of really made that team shine.

I'm not saying we don't have these things. I'm saying it needs to be more specific.