All-Star General 22-23 Season Announcements: Teams/Divisions, New Locations, Mergers, Closures etc.

Feb 4, 2010
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Many sports have events with combined, individual, and unique skills as divisions in the Olympics (skiing, skating, swimming, cycling, equestrian,..)

Yes, that's a fine argument for having a NT-Level 6 division at Worlds. Although I'd equate NT to an ice skating routine where the skater can skip the jumping part or whatever other part of the routine they don't want to do (such as lifts in the pair skating division)--- which isn't an option that exists. You either do the whole routine or you don't compete. This means a lot of athletes will never be able to compete at Worlds- which is kinda the whole point.

But clearly NT serves a purpose for gyms and should exist for all the reasons people above have mentioned, just maybe not at Worlds. Summit is already very crowded though, so it's unlikely it would move there.

My post was more about Level 5 being a Worlds division for International teams and how this is "dumbed down" and unnecessary. I wasn't calling Level 5 "dumb", but it is indeed a step below the highest level. And I don't know of a sport on earth where the second-highest level is allowed to compete at a Worlds (or whatever is deemed the highest ranking competition in a sport). If that was ever an option in the US, I think Level 6 would run the risk of facing near extinction, because there would be way less incentive to bother pushing yourself to that level. At least NT requires you to have some actual Level 6 skill.

Before NT you were done at 18 unless you were one of these "worlds level" athletes.

Yes, so NT gives "non-Worlds level" athletes a chance to get to Worlds, which doesn't make much sense. But I totally agree that NT serves a purpose and allows athletes to continue cheer when they otherwise might not have been able to. While I don't think these teams need to be at Worlds, NT's existence probably isn't harming "actual Level 6" that much.

I don't understand the concern over "level 6 collapse" while at the same time people complain about the number of divisions at worlds or how it has stretched into 3-4 days making it a very expensive event to attend. Young athletes who like to tumble, have the money to pursue the training needed, and avoid injury are not going to all of a sudden jump to NT, nor do I think a gym would place a 15 year old with a full on a NT team when they still are eligible for traditional All Star divisions.

Some gyms only offer a NT-Level 6 team, so yes, an athlete with a full may be on a NT team. Even at one of the "big gyms", I knew of an athlete with a full on NT(maybe she didn't fit on another team). If Suzy's small gym only has a NT-Level 6 team, how hard is Suzy going to push to learn Level 6 tumbling skills? If your ultimate goal in your gym is to get onto the NT team, why bother pushing yourself that hard in tumbling at all.

Yes Worlds is expanding, but it's expanding in NT, not really in the other Level 6 divisions. But I doubt NT will kill Level 6. If they ever let US-Level 5 compete at Worlds though, it might legitimately kill Level 6. You cannot treat Level 5 and Level 6 as the same thing and give them the same exact experience because then Level 6 will just disappear aside from a handful of gyms, and then it that case, what's the point of the level at all. Level 6 routines are what attract many people to this sport, so it's obviously important that we keep it afloat and make sure there are incentives for having Level 6 teams in your gym.
 
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Yes, that's a fine argument for having a NT-Level 6 division at Worlds. Although I'd equate NT to an ice skating routine where the skater can skip the jumping part or whatever other part of the routine they don't want to do (such as lifts in the pair skating division)--- which isn't an option that exists. You either do the whole routine or you don't compete. This means a lot of athletes will never be able to compete at Worlds- which is kinda the whole point.
...you just perfectly described the olympic sport of ice dance - which is actually a great comparator for NT divisions.
I don't think we're going to see the collapse of level 6 any time soon, and if this division stops some of the spinning balls of doom - I mean fulls - that used to be spotted at worlds, then the athletes and sport is better for it.
 

catlady

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My post was more about Level 5 being a Worlds division for International teams and how this is "dumbed down" and unnecessary. I wasn't calling Level 5 "dumb", but it is indeed a step below the highest level. And I don't know of a sport on earth where the second-highest level is allowed to compete at a Worlds (or whatever is deemed the highest ranking competition in a sport). If that was ever an option in the US, I think Level 6 would run the risk of facing near extinction, because there would be way less incentive to bother pushing yourself to that level. At least NT requires you to have some actual Level 6 skill.
I have to believe at this point, you didn't read the last part of my post, which is totally fine, but I addressed this. AS is primarily a parent paid for YOUTH sport. "Eliteness" comes with a huge price tag and is very subjective when it comes to who's worthy.

Youth, and I can not reiterate YOUTH enough, but what other Youth International year end competitions are you comparing All Star to? If some exist, I would actually love to attend one and compare.

@AshleyErin great analogy and very well said!
 

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...you just perfectly described the olympic sport of ice dance - which is actually a great comparator for NT divisions.
I don't think we're going to see the collapse of level 6 any time soon, and if this division stops some of the spinning balls of doom - I mean fulls - that used to be spotted at worlds, then the athletes and sport is better for it.
I was going to say, sounds like Ice Dance. They get the same Olympic medals as the other skating disciplines.
 
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I was going to say, sounds like Ice Dance. They get the same Olympic medals as the other skating disciplines.

You’re right, this is probably the closest example to NT that we could come up with. Except Ice Dance is really its own sport; it’s not just a skating program with the jumps missing. There are certain lifts, dance spins, and other required skills that aren’t part of the other skating disciplines. Compare this to NT which doesn’t really have any unique elements involved, it’s literally the same as any cheer routine (stunts, jumps, dance) with the tumbling sections missing.

NT obviously serves a good purpose and it’s great that it exists. I personally wouldn’t have it at Worlds, but I’m not really that bothered by it being there either.


I have to believe at this point, you didn't read the last part of my post, which is totally fine, but I addressed this. AS is primarily a parent paid for YOUTH sport. "Eliteness" comes with a huge price tag and is very subjective when it comes to who's worthy.

Youth, and I can not reiterate YOUTH enough, but what other Youth International year end competitions are you comparing All Star to? If some exist, I would actually love to attend one and compare.

I read your whole post. There’s no other sport like cheerleading. There’s no other sport with 100 different event producers run by an apparel company, or one that calls what is essentially their one true Nationals “Worlds”. But there are other expensive youth-focused sports like gymnastics and figure skating. There are actually probably more adult participants in cheer than in those sports.

You don’t see those sports letting the level below their highest level compete at their Worlds. Example: Level 10 gymnasts in any country don’t get to go to Worlds; they stop at Nationals. There are several countries whose gymnasts are at a Level 10 level of ability or barely past it, but they’re still required to compete at the Elite level if they want to attend Worlds. In other words, Gymnastics Worlds is for the best level only and isn’t making a separate division for lower level athletes and giving them the same exact prize of “World Champion”. And that’s totally fair and makes complete sense. If they ever were to let Level 10 gymnasts become World/Olympic Champs, I’m almost positive Elite level gymnastics would die.

I know you will say those sports have sponsors and other people footing the bill for their Worlds, but they are still primarily parent-paid-for youth sports. USAG lost all their sponsors after the Nassar scandal. It costs parents over $30,000 a year to participate in a season of world level ice skating, and that’s after subtracting whatever funding they may receive to represent the US in competitions.

I don’t see any good justification for allowing Level 5 to compete at Cheerleading Worlds. As I mentioned in previous posts, I see very good reasons for making sure it remains at the Summit for US teams. I really believe Level 6 would slowly die otherwise. Smaller gyms would stop fielding Level 6, the Level 6 pipelines from smaller gyms to bigger gyms would dry up, and Level 6 as a whole would be on a verge of extinction after a while. I think it’s imperative Worlds remains Level 6 only, at least in the US.
 
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You’re right, this is probably the closest example to NT that we could come up with. Except Ice Dance is really its own sport; it’s not just a skating program with the jumps missing. There are certain lifts, dance spins, and other required skills that aren’t part of the other skating disciplines. Compare this to NT which doesn’t really have any unique elements involved, it’s literally the same as any cheer routine (stunts, jumps, dance) with the tumbling sections missing.

NT obviously serves a good purpose and it’s great that it exists. I personally wouldn’t have it at Worlds, but I’m not really that bothered by it being there either.




I read your whole post. There’s no other sport like cheerleading. There’s no other sport with 100 different event producers run by an apparel company, or one that calls what is essentially their one true Nationals “Worlds”. But there are other expensive youth-focused sports like gymnastics and figure skating. There are actually probably more adult participants in cheer than in those sports.

You don’t see those sports letting the level below their highest level compete at their Worlds. Example: Level 10 gymnasts in any country don’t get to go to Worlds; they stop at Nationals. There are several countries whose gymnasts are at a Level 10 level of ability or barely past it, but they’re still required to compete at the Elite level if they want to attend Worlds. In other words, Gymnastics Worlds is for the best level only and isn’t making a separate division for lower level athletes and giving them the same exact prize of “World Champion”. And that’s totally fair and makes complete sense. If they ever were to let Level 10 gymnasts become World/Olympic Champs, I’m almost positive Elite level gymnastics would die.

I know you will say those sports have sponsors and other people footing the bill for their Worlds, but they are still primarily parent-paid-for youth sports. USAG lost all their sponsors after the Nassar scandal. It costs parents over $30,000 a year to participate in a season of world level ice skating, and that’s after subtracting whatever funding they may receive to represent the US in competitions.

I don’t see any good justification for allowing Level 5 to compete at Cheerleading Worlds. As I mentioned in previous posts, I see very good reasons for making sure it remains at the Summit for US teams. I really believe Level 6 would slowly die otherwise. Smaller gyms would stop fielding Level 6, the Level 6 pipelines from smaller gyms to bigger gyms would dry up, and Level 6 as a whole would be on a verge of extinction after a while. I think it’s imperative Worlds remains Level 6 only, at least in the US.
We've seen a big drop in the number of level 6 teams in the UK with the introduction of level 5 as a Worlds division. With the disruption of Covid and Worlds bids being awarded a season in advance here, teams had the flexibility to change division and many took the opportunity to level down. In many cases level 5 was a more appropriate match for the overall team skill-level - one kid with a double does not make a team level 6.
 
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catlady

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You’re right, this is probably the closest example to NT that we could come up with. Except Ice Dance is really its own sport; it’s not just a skating program with the jumps missing. There are certain lifts, dance spins, and other required skills that aren’t part of the other skating disciplines. Compare this to NT which doesn’t really have any unique elements involved, it’s literally the same as any cheer routine (stunts, jumps, dance) with the tumbling sections missing. NT obviously serves a good purpose and it’s great that it exists. I personally wouldn’t have it at Worlds, but I’m not really that bothered by it being there either. I read your whole post. There’s no other sport like cheerleading. There’s no other sport with 100 different event producers run by an apparel company, or one that calls what is essentially their one true Nationals “Worlds”. But there are other expensive youth-focused sports like gymnastics and figure skating. There are actually probably more adult participants in cheer than in those sports. You don’t see those sports letting the level below their highest level compete at their Worlds. Example: Level 10 gymnasts in any country don’t get to go to Worlds; they stop at Nationals. There are several countries whose gymnasts are at a Level 10 level of ability or barely past it, but they’re still required to compete at the Elite level if they want to attend Worlds. In other words, Gymnastics Worlds is for the best level only and isn’t making a separate division for lower level athletes and giving them the same exact prize of “World Champion”. And that’s totally fair and makes complete sense. If they ever were to let Level 10 gymnasts become World/Olympic Champs, I’m almost positive Elite level gymnastics would die. I know you will say those sports have sponsors and other people footing the bill for their Worlds, but they are still primarily parent-paid-for youth sports. USAG lost all their sponsors after the Nassar scandal. It costs parents over $30,000 a year to participate in a season of world level ice skating, and that’s after subtracting whatever funding they may receive to represent the US in competitions. I don’t see any good justification for allowing Level 5 to compete at Cheerleading Worlds. As I mentioned in previous posts, I see very good reasons for making sure it remains at the Summit for US teams. I really believe Level 6 would slowly die otherwise. Smaller gyms would stop fielding Level 6, the Level 6 pipelines from smaller gyms to bigger gyms would dry up, and Level 6 as a whole would be on a verge of extinction after a while. I think it’s imperative Worlds remains Level 6 only, at least in the US.
We've seen a big drop in the number of level 6 teams in the UK with the introduction of level 5 as a Worlds division. With the disruption of Covid and Worlds bids being awarded a season in advance here, teams had the flexibility to change division and many took the opportunity to level down. In many cases level 5 was a more appropriate match for the overall team skill-level - one kid with a double does not make a team level 6.

You’re right, this is probably the closest example to NT that we could come up with. Except Ice Dance is really its own sport; it’s not just a skating program with the jumps missing. There are certain lifts, dance spins, and other required skills that aren’t part of the other skating disciplines. Compare this to NT which doesn’t really have any unique elements involved, it’s literally the same as any cheer routine (stunts, jumps, dance) with the tumbling sections missing.

NT obviously serves a good purpose and it’s great that it exists. I personally wouldn’t have it at Worlds, but I’m not really that bothered by it being there either.




I read your whole post. There’s no other sport like cheerleading. There’s no other sport with 100 different event producers run by an apparel company, or one that calls what is essentially their one true Nationals “Worlds”. But there are other expensive youth-focused sports like gymnastics and figure skating. There are actually probably more adult participants in cheer than in those sports.

You don’t see those sports letting the level below their highest level compete at their Worlds. Example: Level 10 gymnasts in any country don’t get to go to Worlds; they stop at Nationals. There are several countries whose gymnasts are at a Level 10 level of ability or barely past it, but they’re still required to compete at the Elite level if they want to attend Worlds. In other words, Gymnastics Worlds is for the best level only and isn’t making a separate division for lower level athletes and giving them the same exact prize of “World Champion”. And that’s totally fair and makes complete sense. If they ever were to let Level 10 gymnasts become World/Olympic Champs, I’m almost positive Elite level gymnastics would die.

I know you will say those sports have sponsors and other people footing the bill for their Worlds, but they are still primarily parent-paid-for youth sports. USAG lost all their sponsors after the Nassar scandal. It costs parents over $30,000 a year to participate in a season of world level ice skating, and that’s after subtracting whatever funding they may receive to represent the US in competitions.

I don’t see any good justification for allowing Level 5 to compete at Cheerleading Worlds. As I mentioned in previous posts, I see very good reasons for making sure it remains at the Summit for US teams. I really believe Level 6 would slowly die otherwise. Smaller gyms would stop fielding Level 6, the Level 6 pipelines from smaller gyms to bigger gyms would dry up, and Level 6 as a whole would be on a verge of extinction after a while. I think it’s imperative Worlds remains Level 6 only, at least in the US.
I guess you started a new subject, but if you want to talk about event producers run by an apparel company, then you need to ask yourself, if not them, then who? All Star began in the late 1980's. Mom and pop's are/were great, but they all had different rules and regulations. Money wise, I preferred mom and pop's, however, when it comes to large competition, I prefer Varsity. Hate on them all you want, but AS would not be what and where it is today without their money developing it, or someone else's.

Your quote: "Parents pay over $30,000 a year to participate in a season of world level ice skating."

Thank you, you summed up my point better than I could, proving "eliteness" is extremely expensive. Your quote: "I know you will say those sports have sponsors and other people footing the bill for their Worlds, ..." Yep, that's a hard one to ignore. However, if you not only want to kill level 6, but also level 5 and everything below, be like World level ice skating and have parents paying over $30,000 a season to be "elite."
 
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