High School Male Flyers

[AndyT_T]

In all stars/NCA, not uncommon at all to see guys fly in baskets/pyramid. Especially in the open divisions of all star. More rare to see a guy flying an elite stunt, but does happen. I absolutely love to see guys fly, they often have much better technique in baskets than many girls.

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IMO core strength and a higher center of gravity makes baskets easier for boys to control baskets when flying. Which makes sense when you consider those same things making it easier for boys to tumble.

 

[Ashley]

I agree that cheer is a performance sport and aesthetics are obviously important, which is why I'm a firm believer that if you have 1 boy flyer he better be the best on the team because he needs to be point, and if you have 2 they need to be mirrors, but I don't get how boys pulling body positions is a bad aesthetic?
In dance/acro etc boys do body positions and I think it's aesthetically fine, as long have have good lines.

I'm not saying you should put boy flyers on your team or anything, to each their own. I'm just saying that if a boy is the best flyer on a team but gets told he can't fly because he's a boy.... Thats discrimination. Cut and dry.
If a girl (Cheyenne) can do a rewind cup but gets told she doesn't get to because she's a female its discrimination as well. You can say that in some sports gender roles are important so discrimination is justified (what people used to say about synchronized swimming until a few years ago), but it is still the definition of gender discrimination.

I think you're twisting my words. I've already said if the boy is the best fit for the job, I'd probably fly him. If I need another flyer, and he's the best, then yeah, I'd fly him. But for me to do so means I'm going to have give him a diesel group. So he better be the best.

If I need 5 toss libs and I have 5 guys that can do them, then I'm not going to use the girl that can do one. If I need one more, I'd put her in.

 

[AndyT_T]

I think you're twisting my words. I've already said if the boy is the best fit for the job, I'd probably fly him. If I need another flyer, and he's the best, then yeah, I'd fly him. But for me to do so means I'm going to have give him a diesel group. So he better be the best.

If I need 5 toss libs and I have 5 guys that can do them, then I'm not going to use the girl that can do one. If I need one more, I'd put her in.

I apologize I wasn't trying to paint you as some discriminatory monster. I re-read my message and I came off more confrontational than I should have.

It's an issue I'm passionate about obviously, but I should have worded my opinion better. :(

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I don't care if he's the best flyer in world, he's not flying on my team. . . EVER.

I don't care if he can do a triple up slippity dippity, he's not flying on my team. . .EVER

Luckily, all three coed high school programs in this area, and the local all star gyms see eye-to-eye on this issue, so we don't have problems with boys thinking it's going to happen.

 

[Michael White]

I don't care if he's the best flyer in world, he's not flying on my team. . . EVER.

I don't care if he can do a triple up slippity dippity, he's not flying on my team. . .EVER

Luckily, all three coed high school programs in this area, and the local all star gyms see eye-to-eye on this issue, so we don't have problems with boys thinking it's going to happen.

I hope you can see that that comes across as heavily discriminatory. Personal preference should never dictate placement. The best person should be chosen. Imagine if this were for CEO of a company. "Sorry, we don't hire women as CEOs. All the other businesses in the area agree."

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I hope you can see that that comes across as heavily discriminatory. Personal preference should never dictate placement. The best person should be chosen. Imagine if this were for CEO of a company. "Sorry, we don't hire women as CEOs. All the other businesses in the area agree."

I truly don't care how it comes across. It's the way it is. Boys flying looks stupid, and I will not put anything on the floor that I think looks stupid.

 

[tojofasho]

I don't care if he's the best flyer in world, he's not flying on my team. . . EVER.

I don't care if he can do a triple up slippity dippity, he's not flying on my team. . .EVER

Luckily, all three coed high school programs in this area, and the local all star gyms see eye-to-eye on this issue, so we don't have problems with boys thinking it's going to happen.

So you're saying if you had a 5'1", 90 pound boy with greater flexibility than all the females on your team, who can stay super tight in the air and doesn't have the strength to base effectively, that you'd still keep them out of the air solely because of their gender? What's the rationale there?

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

So you're saying if you had a 5'1", 90 pound boy with greater flexibility than all the females on your team, who can stay super tight in the air and doesn't have the strength to base effectively, that you'd still keep them out of the air solely because of their gender? What's the rationale there?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

The rationale is that it looks stupid.

Edited to take it a step further: If he's showing no interest in learning to base and getting in the gym to develop the strength necessary to do so, he's not going to last very long on my team even if he's a phenomenal tumbler. I don't have room for one-dimensional athletes.

 

[ScottyB]

I hope you can see that that comes across as heavily discriminatory. Personal preference should never dictate placement. The best person should be chosen. Imagine if this were for CEO of a company. "Sorry, we don't hire women as CEOs. All the other businesses in the area agree."

If it is privately owned, that CEO can do as they please. As can a gym owner/coach of a privately owned gym.

Just look at Hobby Lobby or any of the other religious private companies in America. They won't hire gay people. Same with private schools.

And to play devil's advocate in this convo: as a coach of a sports team, aren't you paid for your personal preferences, style, and decision making skills to put the best routine/team out there?

 

[tojofasho]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

The rationale is that it looks stupid.

"it looks stupid"

Well dang you're right, who could possibly argue with such bulletproof logic?

So then answer me this - what's the difference then between not putting a flyer up for being a different gender than all the other flyers vs. not putting a flyer up for being a different race than all the other flyers?

I normally agree with you on the boards as you've been doing this for (probably) longer than I've been alive, but I cannot wrap my head around such blatant discrimination based solely off of gender. If the boy and girl are both an exact match in skill, I would pick the female flyer over the male. Not gonna lie, it'd probably be easier to train him as a base rather than the girl. But if the male is obviously more talented? I just do not understand why you'd skip him all because he has different genitalia. 20/20 showed that you can be very successful even with a male flyer, so obviously it's not a hit to the scoresheet to put one up.

I've started rambling, I do that when I can't find a logical argument for something, I apologize for that. I'm just very confused by this all. No disrespect meant if it comes across that way, I'm just trying to find some reasoning behind your decision-making.

 

[ErinS]

I for one appreciate @OldskoolKYcheercoach 's honesty.

If he/she thinks it looks stupid then that's what he/she thinks.

I personally don't like to see males pulling body positions. A basket or middle layer of a pyramid I can over look...but no I don't want to see your fierce needle. Call it feeding in to gender norms, that's fine. I don't care. I like what I like. There are also some Dance moves I've seen males do that made me raise an eyebrow. But again it's my preference



But let's not compare feeding into gender norms (which are man made to begin with) to racism


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[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

"it looks stupid"

Well dang you're right, who could possibly argue with such bulletproof logic?

So then answer me this - what's the difference then between not putting a flyer up for being a different gender than all the other flyers vs. not putting a flyer up for being a different race than all the other flyers?

I normally agree with you on the boards as you've been doing this for (probably) longer than I've been alive, but I cannot wrap my head around such blatant discrimination based solely off of gender. If the boy and girl are both an exact match in skill, I would pick the female flyer over the male. Not gonna lie, it'd probably be easier to train him as a base rather than the girl. But if the male is obviously more talented? I just do not understand why you'd skip him all because he has different genitalia. 20/20 showed that you can be very successful even with a male flyer, so obviously it's not a hit to the scoresheet to put one up.

I've started rambling, I do that when I can't find a logical argument for something, I apologize for that. I'm just very confused by this all. No disrespect meant if it comes across that way, I'm just trying to find some reasoning behind your decision-making.

There's actually multiple factors that come into play. I'll summarize them to the best of my ability. Some of them are going to seem irrelevant, but they come from years of developing coed programs at various schools to varying levels of competitiveness. Here goes:

1) I just hate it. I think it looks absolutely ridiculous for a guy to be in the air.

2) In the situation of a coach attempting to build a coed program in a high school, it's a "marketing" nightmare. It's hard enough to get athletic guys in a high school in Kentucky to even glance in the direction of a cheer team, much less a cheer team where they see guys doing "girl stuff." Now, granted, after coed becomes established in KY schools, we tend to hang on to it for a LONG, LONG time, but in the early days, it's a nightmare. So, if I put a guy in a girl's position on the team, I'm going to lose whatever credibility I have with every other potential male athlete in the school. Those 5'1" 90pound high school boys who are going to contribute to a cheer team are 1 in a million. I can take any meathead from the football team and teach him to stunt. I'd rather have a team that the football players want to be a part of than a team that becomes known for having "that awesome boy flyer."

3) males tend to develop to their maximum size later in life than females. If I put the midget boy on the team as a flyer his freshman year, and that's all he knows how to do, he becomes virtually useless as a junior if he sprouts to 5'5 and 145 pounds. I can always find a smaller girl and teach her to fly with more efficiency than having to put my biggest girls under some boy who has no other skills.

4) Boys doing body positions are ugly. I've seen a lot of boys try, both on the ground, and competing in large competitions. I assume I'm going to have the opportunity to see some more when I go to D2 Summit in a few weeks. If I come across a boy with "great flexibility" in the air, I'll take note and openly admit to being wrong.

those are the big four. I could think of some more if I wasn't responding in the middle of the work day.

 

[tojofasho]

There's actually multiple factors that come into play. I'll summarize them to the best of my ability. Some of them are going to seem irrelevant, but they come from years of developing coed programs at various schools to varying levels of competitiveness. Here goes:

1) I just hate it. I think it looks absolutely ridiculous for a guy to be in the air.

2) In the situation of a coach attempting to build a coed program in a high school, it's a "marketing" nightmare. It's hard enough to get athletic guys in a high school in Kentucky to even glance in the direction of a cheer team, much less a cheer team where they see guys doing "girl stuff." Now, granted, after coed becomes established in KY schools, we tend to hang on to it for a LONG, LONG time, but in the early days, it's a nightmare. So, if I put a guy in a girl's position on the team, I'm going to lose whatever credibility I have with every other potential male athlete in the school. Those 5'1" 90pound high school boys who are going to contribute to a cheer team are 1 in a million. I can take any meathead from the football team and teach him to stunt. I'd rather have a team that the football players want to be a part of than a team that becomes known for having "that awesome boy flyer."

3) males tend to develop to their maximum size later in life than females. If I put the midget boy on the team as a flyer his freshman year, and that's all he knows how to do, he becomes virtually useless as a junior if he sprouts to 5'5 and 145 pounds. I can always find a smaller girl and teach her to fly with more efficiency than having to put my biggest girls under some boy who has no other skills.

4) Boys doing body positions are ugly. I've seen a lot of boys try, both on the ground, and competing in large competitions. I assume I'm going to have the opportunity to see some more when I go to D2 Summit in a few weeks. If I come across a boy with "great flexibility" in the air, I'll take note and openly admit to being wrong.

those are the big four. I could think of some more if I wasn't responding in the middle of the work day.

See now #2-#4 I am totally on board for. These are all legitimate reasons and had you brought them up from the beginning, I would've more completely understood your decision. I hope you can see why I had an issue with just the statement of "it looks stupid". I had a cheer coach in 7th grade who didn't let a girl fly because she was Mexican and all the other flyers were white. She said it would look "off" because she wouldn't "match" the other flyers. This is immediately where my brain went when your only argument was how it looked. However, I can 100% see your point of view now that you've elaborated more, and I respect your decision to not let boys fly.

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate, I greatly appreciate it.

ETA: @ErinS I somewhat addressed your post in this as well. To me, given the argument of "it looks stupid", I saw no difference between OldskoolKYcheercoach and the coach I had in 7th grade who told my best friend she couldn't fly because of her skin color, with the only reason being "it looks different". Now that there's been an elaboration, while I don't wholeheartedly agree with every point that was made, I can certainly see the difference in situations.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

See now #2-#4 I am totally on board for. These are all legitimate reasons and had you brought them up from the beginning, I would've more completely understood your decision. I hope you can see why I had an issue with just the statement of "it looks stupid". I had a cheer coach in 7th grade who didn't let a girl fly because she was Mexican and all the other flyers were white. She said it would look "off" because she wouldn't "match" the other flyers. This is immediately where my brain went when your only argument was how it looked. However, I can 100% see your point of view now that you've elaborated more, and I respect your decision to not let boys fly.

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate, I greatly appreciate it.

ETA: @ErinS I somewhat addressed your post in this as well. To me, given the argument of "it looks stupid", I saw no difference between OldskoolKYcheercoach and the coach I had in 7th grade who told my best friend she couldn't fly because of her skin color, with the only reason being "it looks different". Now that there's been an elaboration, while I don't wholeheartedly agree with every point that was made, I can certainly see the difference in situations.

I will address the race issue.....

In the interests of floor symmetry, there is a rationale for pushing her to middle floor (either front or back of floor, but dead center if she's the only flyer of color), for some coaches.

I do not subscribe to that belief.

I agree with ErinS that the issue of race is not the same as the submission to gender norms.

 

[coacha]

I coach a small high school coed team and will vouch for number 2. If we want to continue to be coed, we have to make it enticing for the guys to join. Seeing guys holding girls over their head (with one hand!) draws the others in to at least see what it is we do. Most guys do not want to be center flyer drawing all the attention to themselves, and if they saw us doing that, we would never be able to stay afloat.

That said, my biggest issue with guy flyers is the attention it draws. When a guy flies, it almost seems to always be about the guy flyer and not about the rest of what is going on - almost a look at me scenario.

So you're saying if you had a 5'1", 90 pound boy with greater flexibility than all the females on your team, who can stay super tight in the air and doesn't have the strength to base effectively, that you'd still keep them out of the air solely because of their gender? What's the rationale there?

As mentioned above, my biggest rationale is that that boy is not going to stay 5'1". Yes, I know most girls don't either, but as a whole, the boys are going to grow taller and heavier. And that 5'1", 90 pound boy still has more upper body strength than a 5'1", 90 pound girl, so he's still going to be a better base than her.