All-Star "name" Of Gym Affecting Placement?

[KB_Legend]

I'm not saying people won't steal material, because I know they will, but if they like it when they see it and the team doing it originally places well someone who is inclined to do that will likely do it regardless of weather or not they see the actual score. On the other hand, I am confident enough in my coaching ability, and the abilities of every other coach in my gym (and yours for that matter haha) that even if someone steals our stunt/pyramid transition when they see it at a competition they will never be able to do it as well as us simply because we have already been working on it for 6-8 months.

On the big gym wins because of their name topic... I find the whole implication to be pretty insulting quite frankly. As it has been said millions of times on this and various other cheerleading forums the big gym didn't start as a big gym, they got big through hard work and SUPERIOR COACHING! It's easy to make excuses for a loss, especially when your head has been filled with propaganda about the evil big gym, or (as a coach or owner) you are scared of losing your athletes to the gym that beat you. It's much easier to project a short coming onto the judges or politics in general, rather than taking a real honest look at your team and figuring out what your team could have done differently to change the outcome. The only thing you have any control over is your behavior, your abilities, and your preparation, if you honestly believe that if it's neck and neck the coin flip will go to the big gym (which I don't I actually think it goes the other way because we all love the underdog and hate the yankees) then it's your responsibility to remove all doubt and make your team unquestionably better! For some reason everyone will agree that Bill Belichick, Mike Krzyzewski, Pat Summit or whoever else are such great coaches that they can create winners out of any team, myself included, but when a cheerleading team loses the fact that they got out coached never crosses anyone's mind! Judges are biased, the big gyms get an advantage, or those kids are just better "anyone could win with those kids" is all you ever hear! It gets really old! I don't mean that to be insulting to any coaches but everyone always thinks they are already such a great coach that they have nothing to learn, if only they were part of this secret club where you get all the breaks. That's not it... Read a book by one of the legendary coaches (I would recommend John Wooden), talk to coaches from historically successful cheer programs, I find that most coaches are really open and honest about the way their program works, and ultimately WORK HARDER, if you want to beat my team you are going to have to out work us, at least that's the way I see it, and that's hard to do. Sorry for the rant, this is just a touchy subject for me..

 

[CharlotteASMom]

I've missed you on the boards KB!

 

[ACEDAD]

It doesn't affect my opinion on this issue, but there are still teams that take skills/choreography that they see in other routines and incorporate them during the season. Prime example: last season, a Worlds team blatantly used a pyramid sequence from a fairly prominent team IN THEIR OWN division and put it in for Worlds. They still ended up being a top 10 team and hardly anyone criticized them for it.

I could physically hear the keys clicking as the video fanatics start reviewing the vids...

 

[KB_Legend]

I've missed you on the boards KB!

Well I heard there was a whole new generation of posters out there to enlighten with my brilliance (or convince I'm a jerk) haha

 

[RockstarCheer]

This is a general statement and not true for all programs. But, I believe that the larger programs attract the best coaches plus they have better resources available. I've pretty much built 2 programs from scratch. There is alot that goes Into building a team, routine and program. I do believe that our staff at Rockstar can take ANY set of athletes on any scoresheet and win most competitions we attend. Small or large program it doesn't really matter to me. I do believe that judges are human. I do believe that they all try to be as objective as possible. Do they make mistakes sometimes? Sure they do, we all do. I guess I have faith in the human element of our sport. I like to think that all judges try to be as fair as possible.

Sometimes I think I could just get paid to go into other Allstar programs and consult them. Go in and share what I know from 17 years in the business. There really isnt a training program for many of the programs in this industry. Ultimately I want all programs to succeed.

 

[cupieqt]

Well I heard there was a whole new generation of posters out there to enlighten with my brilliance (or convince I'm a jerk) haha

so far I think you're brilliant but we will see

 

[newcheerdad]

As I have tried to point out to many an event producer, when teams/coaches/athletes/fans don't understand a result, they simply fill in that unknown with an assumption - usually one that goes against the event producer. (as evidenced by the above posts)

This. A million times, this. It's a phenomenon you can apply to just about any sport - there's an assumption that popular players or teams get officiating breaks that others don't. And that's in sports where the scoring and officiating is relatively transparent. Add in the secrecy in cheer scoresheets, and you get scenarios like these.

 

[WCMAN]

While I pray this never happens, I am fairly certain that no one would admit it....it is the woes of a judged sport...but can I give you my experience from both sides? Before we went to Cali...we were always given the impression that Cali always won because of who they were. When we got to Cali Camarillo and I had my first parent meeting that talked about nutrition, exercise, building strong bodies etc.(because kids need a strong body to do these world routines)....then I witnessed the coaches work months on conditioning....I purchased tons of epsom salts etc...I now laugh when I hear teams complain that Cali wins because of their name..I know better....

You are so right. Some people from smaller gyms think big gyms get gifts. You could go to any competition and there will be unhappy people and thats why they call it a competition , there is always a winner and a loser..I do feel big gyms have superior coaching and knowing how to jack up the degree of difficulty that some routines can absorb a fall and still win. I would have to say that maybe the average cheer parent does not know about the scoring ,difficulty ,execution etc..Also, for my CP Its a 24hr , 7 day a week life style.My CP conditions at the gym, at home,eats a healthy diet,she will tumble, condition while on vacation ,it is a never ending pursuit to be the best she can be. I AM NOT SAYING THAT CPs AT SMALLER GYMS DO NOT LIVE THIS LIFE STYLE, I'm just speaking for my CP and her teammates .Many BIG GYMS have teams of 36 CPs that all live that life style.Big Gyms also the veteran influence everywhere you look that has Worlds experience, from Shooting Star , Suns, Odyssey (yes, I had to sing it to spell it) that younger CPs watch and learn what it takes to win . Bottom line is my CP is at the gym 7 days a week working hard to be the best and I find it insulting to say that she wins because she comes from a BIG GYM....

 

[Cheerfan1234]

You are so right. Some people from smaller gyms think big gyms get gifts. You could go to any competition and there will be unhappy people and thats why they call it a competition , there is always a winner and a loser..I do feel big gyms have superior coaching and knowing how to jack up the degree of difficulty that some routines can absorb a fall and still win. I would have to say that maybe the average cheer parent does not know about the scoring ,difficulty ,execution etc..Also, for my CP Its a 24hr , 7 day a week life style.My CP conditions at the gym, at home,eats a healthy diet,she will tumble, condition while on vacation ,it is a never ending pursuit to be the best she can be. I AM NOT SAYING THAT CPs AT SMALLER GYMS DO NOT LIVE THIS LIFE STYLE, I'm just speaking for my CP and her teammates .Many BIG GYMS have teams of 36 CPs that all live that life style.Big Gyms also the veteran influence everywhere you look that has Worlds experience, from Shooting Star , Suns, Odyssey (yes, I had to sing it to spell it) that younger CPs watch and learn what it takes to win . Bottom line is my CP is at the gym 7 days a week working hard to be the best and I find it insulting to say that she wins because she comes from a BIG GYM....

A bit off topic, but I find it insulting to conclude that larger programs naturally have superior coaches. There are many small programs that have equal or maybe even better coaches than some of the larger programs, but ufortunately do not have the numbers to work with. In many (disclaimer: NOT ALL) cases, these girls/boys on the teams we admire and worship so much come from the smaller gyms where they are coached to have those skills, and then they decide to hand feed themselves to the coaches of the larger programs.

I do agree that it's insulting for small gyms to automatically assume that big gyms win because of their name. It discredits the athletes and coaches who have put time and hard work into those routines. Most qualified judges are professional enough to give the right placements and "gifts" to the teams who deserve them, regardless of a gym's name or stature.

Unfortunately, judges are humans, and it is human nature to be more fearful of Mr./Mrs. Big Program Owner/Industry Icon than Mr./Mrs. Gym Owner What's Your Name Again? So in close call situations (especially those which occur at the local level where the judges are usually not that great), you will have judges who make decisions based on fear and repercussion versus strong principles and integrity.

 

[ACEDAD]

This is a general statement and not true for all programs. But, I believe that the larger programs attract the best coaches plus they have better resources available. I've pretty much built 2 programs from scratch.

Wait, so you're saying that big programs attact the best coaches, but you got hired twice by programs that didn't exist?

 

[BlueCat]

As I have told our coaches many times when we disagree with (don't understand) results:

Start with the idea that the judges were right, and we were wrong because we assumed something that wasn't true. Try to figure out what that wrong assumption was and fix it for the next time. (NOTE: This can be VERY difficult to do at times.)

 

[KB_Legend]

That's a really good way to put it Jody, and I think that's kind of what we try to do as well

I would also like to add that most people seem to be under the impression that the judges themselves have a vested interest in who actually wins or attends the competition... This isn't really the case. Judges are subcontracted by the competition companies, they are not their employees. People who judge do so because they emjoy cheerleading and for the most part take it very seriously. Judges are concerned about judging the teams accurately and getting the team placements right, they do not make any more or less money if particular teams win or lose. I'm also not sure how many extremely large programs are pulling out of competitions becuase they didn't win enough... I really think what most programs are looking for is a FAIR judgement, not a free ride. I promise you for every one judge who might feel a little extra love for a recognizable program, there is AT LEAST one more (I would venture to say multiple more) that are actually holding that program to a slightly higher standard because they expect more from Cheer Athletics, or World Cup or whoever the program may be. I know for a fact we were at a competition (that I will NOT name) and were told by the event producer that our teams are "judged a little tougher" because of the judges high expectation. Life's not fair, the grass is always greener, we all have our issues to deal with... It's important to keep in mind the fact that the ONLY thing we truly have any control over is ourselves, and if you want to change an outcome you have to change yourself

 

[cupieqt]

That's a really good way to put it Jody, and I think that's kind of what we try to do as well

I would also like to add that most people seem to be under the impression that the judges themselves have a vested interest in who actually wins or attends the competition... This isn't really the case. Judges are subcontracted by the competition companies, they are not their employees. People who judge do so because they emjoy cheerleading and for the most part take it very seriously. Judges are concerned about judging the teams accurately and getting the team placements right, they do not make any more or less money if particular teams win or lose. I'm also not sure how many extremely large programs are pulling out of competitions becuase they didn't win enough... I really think what most programs are looking for is a FAIR judgement, not a free ride. I promise you for every one judge who might feel a little extra love for a recognizable program, there is AT LEAST one more (I would venture to say multiple more) that are actually holding that program to a slightly higher standard because they expect more from Cheer Athletics, or World Cup or whoever the program may be. I know for a fact we were at a competition (that I will NOT name) and were told by the event producer that our teams are "judged a little tougher" because of the judges high expectation. Life's not fair, the grass is always greener, we all have our issues to deal with... It's important to keep in mind the fact that the ONLY thing we truly have any control over is ourselves, and if you want to change an outcome you have to change yourself

Yep. It's confirmed. You're a genius

: D

 

[KB_Legend]

A bit off topic, but I find it insulting to conclude that larger programs naturally have superior coaches. There are many small programs that have equal or maybe even better coaches than some of the larger programs, but ufortunately do not have the numbers to work with. In many (disclaimer: NOT ALL) cases, these girls/boys on the teams we admire and worship so much come from the smaller gyms where they are coached to have those skills, and then they decide to hand feed themselves to the coaches of the larger programs..

Well it may be insulting, but at the same time the best coaches are naturally drawn to the best programs! If you choose to make your living coaching a competitive sport it's likely because you are a competitive person and you want to be the best you can be, and the only way to truly do that is to put yourself in a position to be successful. I'm not saying there aren't excellent coaches at smaller gyms because I'm sure there are. I will say that being a truly great tumbling instructor, or stunt instructor doesn't necessarily make you a great coach. Having large numbers doesn't make you a great coach either, there are some very large gyms that aren't extremely successfull competitively. There are also very small gyms that few people would ever want to compete against (GBE comes to mind). I hate to say it but a great coach will be successfull regardless of the program they are in, and the fact that people are not willing to accept that is the exact point I'm making. No one in cheerleading really wants to believe that they could just flat out be doing a better job coaching their teams

 

[WCMAN]

A bit off topic, but I find it insulting to conclude that larger programs naturally have superior coaches. There are many small programs that have equal or maybe even better coaches than some of the larger programs, but ufortunately do not have the numbers to work with. In many (disclaimer: NOT ALL) cases, these girls/boys on the teams we admire and worship so much come from the smaller gyms where they are coached to have those skills, and then they decide to hand feed themselves to the coaches of the larger programs.

I do agree that it's insulting for small gyms to automatically assume that big gyms win because of their name. It discredits the athletes and coaches who have put time and hard work into those routines. Most qualified judges are professional enough to give the right placements and "gifts" to the teams who deserve them, regardless of a gym's name or stature.

Unfortunately, judges are humans, and it is human nature to be more fearful of Mr./Mrs. Big Program Owner/Industry Icon than Mr./Mrs. Gym Owner What's Your Name Again? So in close call situations (especially those which occur at the local level where the judges are usually not that great), you will have judges who make decisions based on fear and repercussion versus strong principles and integrity.

I agree I didn't want to discredit coaches at small gyms. I should have made that clear. Bad choice of wording.There are many great coaches in small gyms.Those coaches would not be the ones complaining if they lost by a more difficult or better executed routine.