That’s actually a video of me so a little context: it’s taken mid way through hell week when the front double got changed to a front kick full. It’s not a common basket so that was the easiest video for me to find. She didn’t finish the twist into our arms, she was still spinning because she hadn’t yet figured out when to open. It actually shows exactly why front baskets are safer, even though she was still spinning she landed in a cradle. If it had been a back basket she’d probably have landed straight up and down or upside down.
My point was that incomplete front baskets land in a flat back or in a cradle. Incomplete back baskets land upside down or straight up and down.
Oddly, you seem to forget that there are 4 other people involved in that toss. I say "oddly," because you are one of the other four. Granted because of the direction of her twist, you were the least likely to get struck. Your focus is on whether the top completes the flip and therefore lands on her back versus on her feet/head. There's also the impact that can be had because she's still twisting as she lands. That's the reason high school double downs were taken out. It had nothing to do with tops ending up head down or feet down. It was all about the number of concussions sustained to all of the members of the stunt group when the double turned into a 1 1/2 or a 1 3/4.
I don’t get how you’ll comment on a non-tumble division about the erosion of skills from our sport to make weaker teams successful and then in the same breath say baskets have to go. What’s the difference?
Baskets don't have to go, but it won't ever bother me if they do. What's the difference? It probably has something to do with I'm a lot older than you, have lived, have coached, and have done choreography through previous similar changes. I know how the industry responds in each scenario. Limiting a skill across the board, is completely different than having a division where you can compete without having to perform a skill that would otherwise be completely legal.
Going back to double twisting dismounts in high school, when that change occurred around 2012, there was an initial outrage. Then over the course of about two years teams started to work within the new rules and became much more creative with other aspects of their routines such as load-ins, transitions, and other types of dismounts. Routines overall became much cleaner, more creative, and basically more competitive. Those double-twisting dismounts had become the end-all/be-all of skills at nationals, and teams were spending so much time working on them, especially teams that didn't need to be working on them yet, that they were putting them on the floor when they were not performance ready. The change INSTANTLY cleaned up nationals, made it more enjoyable to watch with fewer "ugh" moments, and then it GRADUALLY led to a higher degree of competition among the teams in question.
When USASF added "International" to Worlds around 2005, they created a division where the competition was inherently lower. Some of the routines that came from outside of the United States were not just different, they were downright laughable skill-wise. I think it was 2006 when one of the Chinese teams started their performance with the whole team "nuggetting" on the mat with their flag pulled over top of them like a big sleepover. When the music started they all tried to forward roll out from under the flag. Of course half of their feet got caught in it and it made for comedy, at best. What was the first thing that happened? US teams who were getting mutilated by the big players in the regular divisions were throwing ringers on their new "International" teams and dropping into the International divisions so they could beat up on the foreign teams who just didn't "have it" yet. The next thing you know, USASF has to make a rule that only 3 teams from each country could advance to finals, effectively acknowledging that "we made this division for international teams and the US teams have taken advantage of the rules in an effort to get an easy win"
EDIT: Mark down my prediction now - there will be a team in the top 5 of every non-tumbling division at Worlds that has tumbling, but knew they couldn't beat someone like Top Gun Large Coed, so they just pretended they couldn't tumble and entered the non-tumbling division.
Edit: at college camps the first flipping skill you learn is a front flip dismount to cradle. I’m sure there are cases out there where they don’t go well but I saw teams who couldn’t do full downs do front flips. I’ve seen European teams who are sketchy as all hell but do front flip dismounts safely. I have literally never seen one not land in a flat back or cradle. Not even once.
I’m sure it has happened but I’ve never seen it.
Have you? Has anyone else?
How many back baskets have you seen not complete? I’m sure we’ve all seen hundreds.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Of course front flip dismounts to cradle are easy to learn. A 6 year old can learn how to stand on the edge of a pool and throw their rear end over their heads to land on their back in the water. Replace the little jump off their toes with a dip and a pop from their bases and it's an easy skill to learn. There's a world of difference between that and either type of basket, where the flyer needs to explode upward and get launched in order to complete the skill correctly. I won't really debate the 3/4 flip versus the 1 1/4 flip, most of us who have taught these things are aware of that fact. I'm sure there is a reason these were prohibited as well. My gut instinct is because a lot of people try to do them early on by lurching forward too early and having to be chased down by their catchers, but I haven't actually had this discussion with any of my insider friends. Suffice it to say the front flip dismount to cradle is not directly comparable to a front basket. Just like a back flip dismount to cradle is not directly comparable to backwards flipping toss. I'm suspecting that these were prohibited based on the fact that most of the teams I've seen do them require the tops to basically jump off as the pyramid is popping in a trampoline like effect that requires almost perfect timing.
The overall umbrella effect I see in these rule changes is to allow for greater margin for error without catastrophic results. If it's anything like high school cheer in the mid-80's to early 90's, you'll see some of the skills slowly put back into play after the powers that be have a stronger grip on whatever situations led to the changes.
Example: early 90's high school cheer, all free-standing release moves banned; early 2000's switch ups allowed; late 2000's low to highs put back in play; this year high-to-high tick tocks put back in play. Along the way there were baby steps that saw a period where males could base tick tocks but all-girl groups couldn't, various body positions were allowed/disallowed, and spinning versions were slowly added. Some of these skills will likely be back, unless people continue to act a fool about progressions and then they'll all be taken away.
