- Dec 14, 2009
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And to add to that analogy: I've seen the damage a Ford SUV can do backing up into a beautiful little Audi TT going 5 miles per hour..NOT pretty. People make mistakes..
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- Dec 4, 2009
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- #122
kristenthegreat said:
Exactly. There WILL be mistakes. But putting the right limits for the right situations means we can move people as fast and efficiently through an area as possible with having as few accidents as possible.
Raising the speed limit for an area by 10 miles per hour... let's say neighborhoods all have a speed limit of 35 no matter how many kids and blind spots there are.. because a few decent drivers have BMws and we don't want to limit their vehicles isn't smart. You can make up rules and policies for the individual, you have to create them to be affective and helpful for everyone.
BlueCat
Roses are red, cats are blue
- Dec 14, 2009
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The proposed rule in question doesn't change what stunts are legal at L3. You can still do the exact same stunt. It only potentially affects how many total stunts a team could do IF they were going to do single-based extended stunts. (A small group of L3 teams that I am assuming includes yours) We are not talking about a major shift in the dynamics of the level.
Also, the judges will be able to set a defined maximum number of extended stunts based on team size.
Bottom line, there simply is no single set of rules that everyone agrees with. Period. Before it is said and done, there are hundreds of people who will have the chance to study/discuss/debate all of these details at length long before they would take effect in 2013 at the earliest. We can spend several more pages discussing it if you want, but I don't think we will agree. What number eventually goes in that box on the grid (or even whether there is a grid) will not be determined here by any means.
- Dec 4, 2009
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- #124
I will leave with what started me down this whole path of thinking... the term backspot and spotter. I was called 4 years ago by a coach I knew to come and be an expert in a court case (they settled out of court and it never went past the original phone call). Per the coaches description the quickly assembled group for a high school (or middle school I can't remember which) was, at half time, putting together their best athletes to build a lib straight cradle to do during the third quarter. While warming up and going for the cradle (per the story) during the pop the flyer leaned to the outside and went three feet to the left and landed her butt on the concrete. She either fractured or severely bruised her tail bone and had some medical payments and pain and suffering they were looking for.
I specifically remember to this day the coach saying 'We had a backspot on it so there was a spotter, they can't say I was being unsafe right?'.
Cheerleading has a strong sense of tradition, for all the good and bad of it. The good being our ins, secret sayings, squad bonding, and the things that drive us to be teams, gyms, and programs in general. But the bad being the way we do things is because THAT is they way they have always been done.
However the term backspot arose (and at this point it doesn't matter) the person on the back of the stunt is a base. They are in no way shape or form a spotter. That coach that called me had been lulled into a false sense of security (not to mention idiocy) by thinking the backspot on the stunt meant the stunt was spotted. But can we blame her? We have continued the misnomer OF the backspot. In fact we have built extremely weird and wacky rules in assisted single based stunts. If the person on the side grabs 6 inches up or down with their left hand onto the ankle or wrist they are suddenly a spotter.... and the stunt is safer? If someone were to actually take a coach to court and claim that all I would have to do (as part of the prosecution) is point to the fact that the people not involved in any skills or on any team but are only there to help save flyers if they fall and stand at the back of the mat are also referred to, thought of, and mentioned as spotters. The SAME term. The term HAS to change to not only make more sense but to save our own butts. It is important. It is inevitable this situation will rear its head (I feel like it probably already has somewhere).
When the term base is applied to all athletes that lift up a stunt you soon realize THAT is why the numbers @BlueCat and I have come up with. There is a a reason and a purpose and lots of thought put into it. And every single number on that list of requirements is inclusive. There is no reason if 3 athletes are required to be attentive to a stunt that all 3 cannot be involved in the stunt itself. There is a reason we changed the amount of athletes needed for a level 1 knee stunt or a level 2 prep one leg. Thinking through it the numbers were NOT changed because it allowed gyms to put up more stunts. Those numbers were changed because it is a reasonable amount of athletes to execute those skills nationwide with no issues. And as del go through, pick apart, and really study the numbers there won't be a single number on that grid that is suggested that has not taken into consideration the unfortunate possibilities and how to minimize them while allowing teams to be their most effective.
When I first started working at Rays 6 years ago an saw Top Gun win their first worlds I actually said 'they are about to scare everyone out of the division'. Look what happened.
I said the same thing about large senior. Look what happened.
I said there needed to be an athlete registration system, came up with the idea, and it eventually got through to the USASF. Look what happened.
I harped on why the number 30 for a division would take off... and look what happened.
Now for the most important one: If we don't change the name of backspotters and spotters and bases and fix the grid to appropriately apply to everyone on our own... a catastrophe will force us to do it ourselves. Setting back cheer and our image for years to come.
I specifically remember to this day the coach saying 'We had a backspot on it so there was a spotter, they can't say I was being unsafe right?'.
Cheerleading has a strong sense of tradition, for all the good and bad of it. The good being our ins, secret sayings, squad bonding, and the things that drive us to be teams, gyms, and programs in general. But the bad being the way we do things is because THAT is they way they have always been done.
However the term backspot arose (and at this point it doesn't matter) the person on the back of the stunt is a base. They are in no way shape or form a spotter. That coach that called me had been lulled into a false sense of security (not to mention idiocy) by thinking the backspot on the stunt meant the stunt was spotted. But can we blame her? We have continued the misnomer OF the backspot. In fact we have built extremely weird and wacky rules in assisted single based stunts. If the person on the side grabs 6 inches up or down with their left hand onto the ankle or wrist they are suddenly a spotter.... and the stunt is safer? If someone were to actually take a coach to court and claim that all I would have to do (as part of the prosecution) is point to the fact that the people not involved in any skills or on any team but are only there to help save flyers if they fall and stand at the back of the mat are also referred to, thought of, and mentioned as spotters. The SAME term. The term HAS to change to not only make more sense but to save our own butts. It is important. It is inevitable this situation will rear its head (I feel like it probably already has somewhere).
When the term base is applied to all athletes that lift up a stunt you soon realize THAT is why the numbers @BlueCat and I have come up with. There is a a reason and a purpose and lots of thought put into it. And every single number on that list of requirements is inclusive. There is no reason if 3 athletes are required to be attentive to a stunt that all 3 cannot be involved in the stunt itself. There is a reason we changed the amount of athletes needed for a level 1 knee stunt or a level 2 prep one leg. Thinking through it the numbers were NOT changed because it allowed gyms to put up more stunts. Those numbers were changed because it is a reasonable amount of athletes to execute those skills nationwide with no issues. And as del go through, pick apart, and really study the numbers there won't be a single number on that grid that is suggested that has not taken into consideration the unfortunate possibilities and how to minimize them while allowing teams to be their most effective.
When I first started working at Rays 6 years ago an saw Top Gun win their first worlds I actually said 'they are about to scare everyone out of the division'. Look what happened.
I said the same thing about large senior. Look what happened.
I said there needed to be an athlete registration system, came up with the idea, and it eventually got through to the USASF. Look what happened.
I harped on why the number 30 for a division would take off... and look what happened.
Now for the most important one: If we don't change the name of backspotters and spotters and bases and fix the grid to appropriately apply to everyone on our own... a catastrophe will force us to do it ourselves. Setting back cheer and our image for years to come.
- Mar 31, 2010
- 1,399
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Well the truck and moped in the example aren't capable of safely traveling at the posted limit, you can try but your tires might fall off.
- Mar 31, 2010
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We aren't doing single based stunts, but we are fully capable of putting up stunts with only 2 people under it. But we don't really have the right positional ratio to make it worth doing a basic 2 man versus doing complex transitions with 3 people under it.
What about needing 3 for double downs in 5? We don't have a 5 but I would assume thAt the majority coed teams at worlds performed assisted single based double downs.
But my point is that wherever you set the limit, you are going to have
elite teams pushing the limits
Average teams that have barely majority tumbling and can hit the basic stunts of the level but not really max out the transitions
And you'll have teams that would be better off in the lower level
A good portion of The avg and no business teams are going to be pushing beyond there safe capabilities to try to compete with the elite teams.
If you make 3 "safer" you'll have some current 2's jumping up and your elite 3's will become avg 4's and will then try to push the 4 limits and you end in the same situation
- Mar 31, 2010
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@kingston @BlueCat
Obviously there will be some disagreement on the particulars but here is my attempt at the Stunt section with only 4 18 and under levels
Stunts: (1.these are the max level skills allowed at the level, just because you are entered in a Level does not mean your particular team is capable of throwing the max difficulty skills 2. levels include all of the skills of the previous levels 3. Someone must always be in position to protect the shoulder to head region of the flyer)
POGs (People On the Ground)
Level 1 - 1 for below prep, 3 at prep
Level 2 - 2 at prep, 3 at extension
Level 3 - 2 at extension
Level 4 - 2 at extension
Height (based on where the flyers hips are in comparison with where the hips would be at the following positions)
Level 1 - 2 leg prep, 1 leg at prep
level 2 - 2 leg extended, 1 leg at prep
Level 3- 1 leg extended
Level 4 - 1 leg extended
Cradles
Level 1- straight ride
level 2 - 1 trick from 2 feet
Level 3 -2 trick from 2 feet, 1 trick from 1 foot
Level 4 - 3 tricks
Twisting (based on flyer in relation the the performance surface)
Level 1 - 1/2 twist
Level 2 - 1 twist to prep level
Level 3 - 1 twist
Level 4 - 2 twist
Inversions (hips and at least one foot higher than the head)
Level 1- inversions may lose contact in order to transition into a non inverted stunt
Level 2-allowed at shoulder level and below, downward below prep
Level 3 -allowed at extension, downward at prep
Level 4 -allows inverted to non-inverted release moves and downward from above prep level
Release Moves (flyer losing contact with the bases and not landing in a cradle)
Level 1- ground level to below prep, 0 tricks
Level 2-start from below prep and end at prep or below, 1 trick (no twisting)
level 3 - start from below prep and end at extension, 1 trick
Level 4- 2 tricks
Imagine it on one landscape page with 2 Columns Under the stunts heading, 1 with the basics (POG, Height, Cradle) the other with Transitions (twisting, releases, inversions). We could have Stunts for all levels on one page. I can go ahead and throw in baskets- Baskets follow 2 feet cradle guidelines and require 3 catchers.
right direction? Pros? Cons? is it worth doing it for pyramids and tumbling?
Obviously there will be some disagreement on the particulars but here is my attempt at the Stunt section with only 4 18 and under levels
Stunts: (1.these are the max level skills allowed at the level, just because you are entered in a Level does not mean your particular team is capable of throwing the max difficulty skills 2. levels include all of the skills of the previous levels 3. Someone must always be in position to protect the shoulder to head region of the flyer)
POGs (People On the Ground)
Level 1 - 1 for below prep, 3 at prep
Level 2 - 2 at prep, 3 at extension
Level 3 - 2 at extension
Level 4 - 2 at extension
Height (based on where the flyers hips are in comparison with where the hips would be at the following positions)
Level 1 - 2 leg prep, 1 leg at prep
level 2 - 2 leg extended, 1 leg at prep
Level 3- 1 leg extended
Level 4 - 1 leg extended
Cradles
Level 1- straight ride
level 2 - 1 trick from 2 feet
Level 3 -2 trick from 2 feet, 1 trick from 1 foot
Level 4 - 3 tricks
Twisting (based on flyer in relation the the performance surface)
Level 1 - 1/2 twist
Level 2 - 1 twist to prep level
Level 3 - 1 twist
Level 4 - 2 twist
Inversions (hips and at least one foot higher than the head)
Level 1- inversions may lose contact in order to transition into a non inverted stunt
Level 2-allowed at shoulder level and below, downward below prep
Level 3 -allowed at extension, downward at prep
Level 4 -allows inverted to non-inverted release moves and downward from above prep level
Release Moves (flyer losing contact with the bases and not landing in a cradle)
Level 1- ground level to below prep, 0 tricks
Level 2-start from below prep and end at prep or below, 1 trick (no twisting)
level 3 - start from below prep and end at extension, 1 trick
Level 4- 2 tricks
Imagine it on one landscape page with 2 Columns Under the stunts heading, 1 with the basics (POG, Height, Cradle) the other with Transitions (twisting, releases, inversions). We could have Stunts for all levels on one page. I can go ahead and throw in baskets- Baskets follow 2 feet cradle guidelines and require 3 catchers.
right direction? Pros? Cons? is it worth doing it for pyramids and tumbling?
- Mar 31, 2010
- 1,399
- 810
Decided to just go for it
Tumbling:
Standing:
Level 1 - allows a single back handspring and all skills that maintain constant contact with the ground.
Level 2 - must have hand contact with the ground while passing through inverted and can connect to jumps.
Level 3 - allows flips not directly connected to jumps
Level 4 - allows up to 1 flipping and 2 twisting rotations.
Running:
Level 1 - all skills that maintain constant contact with the ground, allows 1 handspring at the end of passes
Level 2 - allows a tuck at the end of passes
Level 3- allows 1 flipping rotation
Level 4 - allows up to 1 flipping and 2 twisting rotations
not super happy with this, we either jump to hand springs too quickly or jump to double fulls too quickly. But in theory, at level 1 not allowing series handsprings and hopefully the scoresheets would back this up would encourage coaches to teach walkovers to connect them to the handsprings
Tumbling:
Standing:
Level 1 - allows a single back handspring and all skills that maintain constant contact with the ground.
Level 2 - must have hand contact with the ground while passing through inverted and can connect to jumps.
Level 3 - allows flips not directly connected to jumps
Level 4 - allows up to 1 flipping and 2 twisting rotations.
Running:
Level 1 - all skills that maintain constant contact with the ground, allows 1 handspring at the end of passes
Level 2 - allows a tuck at the end of passes
Level 3- allows 1 flipping rotation
Level 4 - allows up to 1 flipping and 2 twisting rotations
not super happy with this, we either jump to hand springs too quickly or jump to double fulls too quickly. But in theory, at level 1 not allowing series handsprings and hopefully the scoresheets would back this up would encourage coaches to teach walkovers to connect them to the handsprings
- Mar 25, 2010
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- 304
One thing I think is being overlooked by those concerned about the quantity aspect of the scoresheets and the way it is affected by the grids is the way it will change if these "rules" are adopted. With quantity the way it is now, lower level teams, i.e. levels 1-4, are attempting to put up two based stunts to max out the scoresheet, but are unable to perform the most difficult stunt sequences allowed for their respective levels. With the proposed changes, quantity will not be considered as much as difficulty will be rewarded. For example, a small team of 20 will only be able to put up 5 stunts max. This will most likely become a standard for small teams at competitions; therefore, difficulty becomes the determining factor. The best analogy I can give is that of compulsory gymnastics. In compulsory gymnastics you have a set routine, but there are skills that can become more advanced in a routine that provide that individual with bonus points. So applying this, the same stunt can be performed by two different teams, but team A uses three bases and team B uses two bases and a third as a spot, which can be rewarded greatly under this new system.
Basically, I love it!
Basically, I love it!
- Jan 16, 2011
- 173
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As a parent, I love this idea. It makes sense. A lot of sense. It would allow for the people coaching my child to customize stunting positions, and the location of the athletes to maximize safety based on each stunt group's unique gifts/challenges. Also, it makes it a heck of a lot easier for me to understand the rules.
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