All-Star Redfining Positions In Stunts

[CGAcheer]

I see where you are going, but overall, I don't think there are enough teams at competitions to warrant having any more levels. If anything, I think there should probably be one fewer level and perhaps one fewer age bracket than what we currently have.

Also note: The rules as they are seem enormously complicated to me, and I have been involved in their creation. I cannot imagine what a somewhat "rookie" coach thinks when they try to tackle them. I like the grid idea in general, because of how simple it is to look up specific skills at specific levels, but I tend to think along those lines anyway. It may not be possible to go from "enormously complicated" to "simple", but I hope to get at least part way there.

I have had a little more success than I was anticipating in putting some of the other aspects of cheer into tables, but they still need to be refined and vetted a LOT before they are "ready for prime time"

didn't add a level just renamed restricted 5, 5 and 6

But I can break down virtually every section of the rules into their basic gist like the running tumbling involved and quite possibly fit the rules for levels 1-7 within about 4 to 5 pages

 

[rvnblue]

Added some stuff, let me know if we are on the right track. (There are multiple sheets in the document) Please remember that this is definitely a work in progress and MANY more adjustments/refinements would need to go into this before it would ever be given serious consideration. We also have to really work on the layout/presentation. Anyway, hopefully you get the idea.

Potential Rules Grid

Also, as an FYI - this would be for the 2013-2014 season, NOT the upcoming season.

I think it would really help if there were dedicated threads to discuss each section of rules/grid in the document.

 

[CGAcheer]

I know I have 1-7, but there are currently 7 levels any way with 1-6 plus restricted 5. I don't believe that you can lay out the stunt rules much more simply than I have here.
Stunts: (1.these are the max level skills allowed at the level, just because you are entered in a Level does not mean your particular team is capable of throwing the max difficulty skills 2. levels include all of the skills of the previous levels)

POGs (People On the Ground)
Level 1 - 1 for below prep, 3 at prep
Level 2 - 2 at prep, 3 at extension
Level 3-6 - 2 at extension
Level 7 - 1 at extension, 2 for trick cradle

Height (based on where the flyers hips are in comparison with where the hips would be at the following positions)
Level 1 - 2 leg prep, 1 leg below prep
level 2 - 2 leg extended, 1 leg at prep
Level 3-7 - 1 leg extended

Twisting (based on flyer in relation the the performance surface)
Level 1 - 1/4 twist
Level 2 - 1/2 twist
Level 3 - 1 twist to prep level
Level 4 - 1 twist to ext
Level 5 - 1.5 twists
Level 6 - 2 twists
Level 7 - 2.5 twists

Inversions (hips and at least one foot higher than the head)
Level 1- maintain contact with the ground
Level 2- inversions may lose contact in order to transition into a non inverted stunt
Level 3 - allowed at shoulder level and below, downward below prep
Level 4 - allowed at extension, downward at prep
Level 5 - allows connected downward inversions
Level 6 - allows inverted .5 rotating release moves
Level 7 - allows inverted single rotating release moves

Release Moves (flyer losing contact with the bases and not landing in a cradle)
Level 1- none
Level 2- ground level to below prep, 0 tricks
level 3 - start from below prep and end at prep or below, 1 trick
Level 4- start from below prep and end at extension, 1 trick
Level 5 - start from prep and end at extension, 1 trick
Level 6 - 2 tricks
Level 7 - 3 tricks

Cradles
Level 1- straight ride
level 2 - 1/4 twist
Level 3 - 1 trick from 2 feet
Level 4 - 2 trick from 2 feet, 1 trick from 1 foot
Level 5 - 3 tricks from 2 feet, 2 tricks from 1 foot
Level 6 - 3/4 flips from 2 feet, 3 tricks from 1 foot
Level 7 - 3/4 flips from 1 foot

 

[BlueCat]

I know I have 1-7, but there are currently 7 levels any way with 1-6 plus restricted 5. I don't believe that you can lay out the stunt rules much more simply than I have here.

You have a point. However, each skill set is broken down into 6 levels currently, plus I don't really consider 5R to be it's own level, just a variation of L5. I have seen roughly similar breakdowns of stunts (and tumbling) into 7 or even 8 levels. It definitely gets easier to make distinct, logical progressions the more levels you use. However, I don't think that the dynamics of the industry can support that many distinct levels. Again, as I mentioned, there probably should really be only 4 levels and 1 fewer age bracket in order to foster more competition within each division.

That being said, I like several things about your breakdown, not the least of which is it's simplicity. I do think some of the stuff, (the inversion setup and flipping to cradles in particular), would be a tough sell from a safety point of view, however.

 

[CGAcheer]

@BlueCat
The first years of 5R was just a variation, since the only difference was ages and double fulls. But now, there are pyramid and basket diffrences too. 3 sections,( stunts, pyramids and baskets) are all that separate current 5 from 6.

Am I right to assume that you meant 4 18under divisions + current 6. Or did you mean 4 total?

 

[BlueCat]

@BlueCat
The first years of 5R was just a variation, since the only difference was ages and double fulls. But now, there are pyramid and basket diffrences too. 3 sections,( stunts, pyramids and baskets) are all that separate current 5 from 6.

Am I right to assume that you meant 4 18under divisions + current 6. Or did you mean 4 total?

4 + what is now L6. 5 total. We don't exercise as much control over that division's rules, so I don't tend to include it in these thought processes, however, it obviously belongs in the discussion.

 

[kristenthegreat]

My only issue is that with level 3 and 4, you're also including Mini and Youth (youth for 4)..both of which I which I would NOT feel comfortable with cradling from an extended position with only 2 bases. I know our first thought is tends to be senior, but there are some senior teams I don't think I'd want cradling with 2 from extension..If you allow something, you KNOW somebody's gonna try it, then what's the point of doing it for safety?

 

[CGAcheer]

My only issue is that with level 3 and 4, you're also including Mini and Youth (youth for 4)..both of which I which I would NOT feel comfortable with cradling from an extended position with only 2 bases. I know our first thought is tends to be senior, but there are some senior teams I don't think I'd want cradling with 2 from extension..If you allow something, you KNOW somebody's gonna try it, then what's the point of doing it for safety?

thats the reason for the disclaimer
(1.these are the max level skills allowed at the level, just because you are entered in a Level does not mean your particular team is capable of throwing the max difficulty skills 2. levels include all of the skills of the previous levels)

There's always going to be people doing stuff they shouldn't be doing. If we wanted to be safe we keep everyone on the ground and not tumble. Just because its allowed, doesn't mean you have to do it.

a Mini level 3 team, this year can do a full twisting release move and catch it in a prep level bow and arrow with 1 base and a spotter, then press to a single based 2leg extension and full down with only two catchers. I highly doubt there will be any mini or youth teams doing that, but they are allowed to. There has to be a certain amount of self regulation based on the capabilities of your specific team.

Don't want it to get to the "Caution: your hot coffee may be hot" kind of level

 

[CGAcheer]

You have a point. However, each skill set is broken down into 6 levels currently, plus I don't really consider 5R to be it's own level, just a variation of L5. I have seen roughly similar breakdowns of stunts (and tumbling) into 7 or even 8 levels. It definitely gets easier to make distinct, logical progressions the more levels you use. However, I don't think that the dynamics of the industry can support that many distinct levels. Again, as I mentioned, there probably should really be only 4 levels and 1 fewer age bracket in order to foster more competition within each division.

That being said, I like several things about your breakdown, not the least of which is it's simplicity. I do think some of the stuff, (the inversion setup and flipping to cradles in particular), would be a tough sell from a safety point of view, however.

I can break it into 6 total levels later. or 5

what is wrong with the inversions? its basically what we have now.

As to flipping cradles, I thought about having it from prep instead of 2 feet, but 2 feet flowed better with the rest of the language. I think a current level 5 team should be fully capable of doing a 3/4 flip to cradle. its done all the time in pyramids and level 3 teams do it all the time, but with maintaining contact with the backspot

 

[CGAcheer]

Level 6 - allows inverted .5 rotating release moves
Level 7 - allows inverted single rotating release moves

Would allow handstand to non inverted release moves at 6 and rewind at 7.
perhaps I should specify inverted to non inverted only at 6 and must start below prep or ground level for 7

giving us-
Level 6 - allows inverted to non inverted release moves
Level 7 - allows single rotating release moves starting from ground level

 

[BlueCat]

The problem with free-flipping baskets isn't that they are difficult to do. (A 3/4 front basket is MUCH easier to do than a kick double, IMO.) The problem is that the height and the inversion creates a higher risk of catastrophic injury. I think elite teams could probably perform them with an acceptable level of risk, but those aren't the teams I would be worried about.

The downward inversions are kind of the same situation for me. We have to be very careful about what we allow there as well for the same reasons.

If/when we have a stricter setup for credentialing coaches/athletes, I might feel a bit more confident about allowing free-flipping baskets among top-level HS-aged athletes.

 

[King]

I think you came upon the right use of words. The number of athletes used to do a skill per level is about acceptable level of risk. Its not that there aren't teams that can do harder (really Orange or Panthers could compete senior level 3 in theory and do really hard skills) but knowing the general population and who would be in these levels and ages I think some our more restrictive suggestions are correct.

What is the smartest level of acceptable risk for each level?

 

[BlueCat]

I think you came upon the right use of words. The number of athletes used to do a skill per level is about acceptable level of risk. Its not that there aren't teams that can do harder (really Orange or Panthers could compete senior level 3 in theory and do really hard skills) but knowing the general population and who would be in these levels and ages I think some our more restrictive suggestions are correct.

What is the smartest level of acceptable risk for each level?

It sounds cold, impersonal, and calculating to phrase it that way, but it is true. Everything we do has a level of risk to it. There is always a chance that something terrible will happen regardless of the safeguards you put in place. There is simply no way to eliminate ALL risk of serious injury from cheerleading. The goal should be to minimize it within reason.

The trick is deciding (and calculating) the "acceptable" level of risk. That is difficult to do. We all think that being afraid to play Russian Roulette would be a reasonable fear. It would be unreasonable, however, to fear walking outside because you might get struck by a meteor, even though that technically has a greater than zero chance of happening. Somewhere in between is that "sweet spot" where we want to avoid going over.

This task is not made easier by the fact that we are often extraordinarily bad at estimating risk. (Compare the perceived safety level of handguns in the home vs. backyard pools for example - or sharks vs hippos, driving to the airport vs flying in a plane, flu vs. anthrax, etc.) No one wants children hurt, but no one wants to eliminate fun or physical activity either. Finding the balance is difficult, but we must make every effort to take risk into account and eliminate those risks which we think are unreasonable.

 

[King]

It sounds cold, impersonal, and calculating to phrase it that way, but it is true. Everything we do has a level of risk to it. There is always a chance that something terrible will happen regardless of the safeguards you put in place. There is simply no way to eliminate ALL risk of serious injury from cheerleading. The goal should be to minimize it within reason.

The trick is deciding (and calculating) the "acceptable" level of risk. That is difficult to do. We all think that being afraid to play Russian Roulette would be a reasonable fear. It would be unreasonable, however, to fear walking outside because you might get struck by a meteor, even though that technically has a greater than zero chance of happening. Somewhere in between is that "sweet spot" where we want to avoid going over.

This task is not made easier by the fact that we are often extraordinarily bad at estimating risk. (Compare the perceived safety level of handguns in the home vs. backyard pools for example - or sharks vs hippos, driving to the airport vs flying in a plane, flu vs. anthrax, etc.) No one wants children hurt, but no one wants to eliminate fun or physical activity either. Finding the balance is difficult, but we must make every effort to take risk into account and eliminate those risks which we think are unreasonable.

Well put. I think this is where certain things, like my requirement of 3 attentive athletes in level 3, seems like a hindrance to some. The thing is when you require 3 people you know that for level 3 and the first time they are ever extending a one leg skill that that there is a very low level of risk. I believe the level of risk by allowing 2 athletes only is quite a good bit higher and not acceptable. Yes there are athletes who compete level 3 who can do it with only 2 bases (my earlier example if Orange or Panthers competed level 3), but that does not account for everything. By having a proper level of risk management (which may mean being more restrictive in certain parts) we might be able to be LESS restrictive on the higher end.

 

[CGAcheer]

The problem with free-flipping baskets isn't that they are difficult to do. (A 3/4 front basket is MUCH easier to do than a kick double, IMO.) The problem is that the height and the inversion creates a higher risk of catastrophic injury. I think elite teams could probably perform them with an acceptable level of risk, but those aren't the teams I would be worried about.

The downward inversions are kind of the same situation for me. We have to be very careful about what we allow there as well for the same reasons.

If/when we have a stricter setup for credentialing coaches/athletes, I might feel a bit more confident about allowing free-flipping baskets among top-level HS-aged athletes.

I'm with you on free flipping baskets, I was talking about 3/4 front flip cradles from prep level.

All of the downward inversions(except for the inverted release moves) are currently allowed. We could put a blanket statement of someone should always be in place to protect the shoulder to head region of the flyer across all stunts, baskets and pyramids