All-Star Releasing Athletes

[Cheer Dad]

@Andre, I tried sending you a pm with a question but it wot send. Not sure if you have me blocked but is it possible for you to pm me so I can try again?


Ones perception is not always reality.

 

[Deleted member 15]

@Andre, I tried sending you a pm with a question but it wot send. Not sure if you have me blocked but is it possible for you to pm me so I can try again?


Ones perception is not always reality.

I turned PMs off because all I was getting was rules questions that we've been told not to answer unless they go through the email address.

My email is [email protected].

 

[Cheer Dad]

I turned PMs off because all I was getting was rules questions that we've been told not to answer unless they go through the email address.

My email is [email protected].

Thank you


Ones perception is not always reality.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

@CharlotteASMom I agree (especially about the end of the world lol).

I don't think people should just run from gym to gym with no consequences.

Things I DISAGREE with:
1. Use of ridiculous non-applicable examples. Soccer = good example. Hockey = good example. These are both sports that involve children and money, and are therefore similar. Cars, soda, cable tv... not the same. At all. Stop comparing them. Especially when the comparison actually makes my point, not the opposite, since NONE of these companies can prevent you from buying another product.
2. No appeals. I've seen waaaaay too many shady/spiteful/childish/unprofessional gym owners think this is not an absolute necessity.
3. One-sided-ness of the rule. Not sure why a gym can replace someone on their team, move them to a lower team or make them an alternate, but that person can't leave.
People keep bringing up contracts. Well, first of all, they're usually NOT contracts. They're registration forms. A contract is much more, and would have ALL the rules/stipulations/etc in it. There is a difference. Second of all, when you sign these papers, it's AFTER team placements. This implies that team placement is part of the deal. Change that and you've changed the terms of the deal, thereby voiding any agreement we had.
4. Lack of interest on the USASF's part in fixing things. They love to make rules, enforce some (some of the time), not enforce others, etc. But there is no follow up to see if a rule could be tweaked or improved. It's just "That's the rule. Moving on..."

I don't get why there is no appeals process. I don't get why coaches are screaming in people's faces that people are lining up at the door to take their spots... and then crying and throwing tantrums when those kids want to move on. Make a decision - either the kid can be easily replaced, or she/he can't. You don't get to tell kids every 22 seconds that they can be replaced before the day is up, and then go crying to the usasf that there needs to be some kind of rule to keep you from having to replace athletes because it's "such a struggle."

I have no problem with rules. I have no problem with locking people in to a whole season. Just add some stipulations and I'm good. Things like:
If you get rid of my team, I can leave.
If I move 500 miles away with my parents, I can move on without waiting for you to feel like signing something.
If I ask for a release, you don't get to sign or not sign based on where I'm going; you either sign or not, future gym not relevant.
If I can prove something illegal is going on, I don't need a release (Eg the owner or a current coach gets arrested for statutory rape)

I don't know why these things are unreasonable, but an appeals process would help.


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[Just-a-Mom]

Oh... before anyone jumps on me: when I say "leave" I mean with no strings attached. I know I can leave at any time. I mean leave and be free and clear to do whatever with whoever - including go to worlds.

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[quitthedrama]

My understanding is that if a team changes (in similar situation as you've mentioned) then a release will be given - Example - Coed Level 5 team chooses to go all-girl the boys would be released if the gym is not offering a team for them.
BUT with that being said, the writing is probably on the wall WAY before the "December" competition. My main point is families need to take responsibility when choosing a program they will be investing in. Yes, INVESTING. Time, money, relationships. Would you buy a house that the roof is falling down? If it had water leaks? If you didn't research that investment you have no one to blame but yourself if down the road a pipe bursts. Yes, there are "special" situations and in those legitimate "special" situations there are ways out. I just see way too many people not researching then complaining that things are bad.

This definitely was not the case. I guess the fact that I have seen real life situations of gym owners who set kids up to deliberately screw them over makes me super heated over this rule. And sometimes the writing may start to be on the wall and the athlete/parent starts to ask questions, but the gym owner repeatedly convinces the athlete and parent that all will be well, and the athlete and parent choose to believe the gym owner and stay loyal and get burned.

@Just-a-Mom has said it all way better than I have. I know full well hell will probably freeze over before anything changes with this rule, but that won't stop me from discussing how one-sided and unfair it is to the consumer.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

This definitely was not the case. I guess the fact that I have seen real life situations of gym owners who set kids up to deliberately screw them over makes me super heated over this rule. And sometimes the writing may start to be on the wall and the athlete/parent starts to ask questions, but the gym owner repeatedly convinces the athlete and parent that all will be well, and the athlete and parent choose to believe the gym owner and stay loyal and get burned.

@Just-a-Mom has said it all way better than I have. I know full well hell will probably freeze over before anything changes with this rule, but that won't stop me from discussing how one-sided and unfair it is to the consumer.

Yes! I think people really do go in with a positive outlook, so of course they want to believe what they're being told. Then the first comp comes and goes, and their gym they once trusted so much and poured their heart and soul into has no trouble stabbing them in the back.

I think those of us who've seen firsthand how unfair gyms can be feel differently than people who are at good programs and haven't had a bad experience (yet).

I agree - I'm sure that cold day in hell will come, and pigs will fly before we'll see any of the ptb make a change that benefits the consumer, but it's still worth trying, I think.

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[12stepCheermom]

This definitely was not the case. I guess the fact that I have seen real life situations of gym owners who set kids up to deliberately screw them over makes me super heated over this rule. And sometimes the writing may start to be on the wall and the athlete/parent starts to ask questions, but the gym owner repeatedly convinces the athlete and parent that all will be well, and the athlete and parent choose to believe the gym owner and stay loyal and get burned.

@Just-a-Mom has said it all way better than I have. I know full well hell will probably freeze over before anything changes with this rule, but that won't stop me from discussing how one-sided and unfair it is to the consumer.

Agreed. I know of a situation where a gym begged a kid to stay....guilted them into just sticking it out, try it through the first competition. "You'll see, it will be different blah blah blah". Naïveté on the part of the kid and parents. They guilted the kid into staying through the first competition and after, when they said...no, I'm still not happy we'd like to leave...the gym was "oh sorry, have a great season elsewhere....oh, but since you competed with us you can't get a release." End conversation. Suddenly they weren't begging for anything, it was "okay, bye!"

They deliberately guilted that kid into sticking through the first competition to screw them over in the release to the rival gym (with lots of bad blood between them) they knew they were going to. And stuck to it. That kid didn't get released. Now the parents and kid should've known they were being set up but I think they were not as cynical as me and really wanted to believe that their conversations with their coaches and gym was going to make a difference.

Yes it's the parents fault for not realizing they were about to get screwed but it's also shady business practice to go out of your way to screw over a kid because that's what this was.

 

[CharlotteASMom]

We can debate the rule and all the "ifs, ands, or buts" that would make the rule better or worse but we keep missing the point on WHY is the rule needed and why do some families still feel slighted by it. Again, releasing athletes is not a major issue in other youth sports but why?!?! Are there not terrible hockey, soccer, or football clubs out there or are there other factors that lead to this? I can tell you there are a lot! So, why can cheer families not decide if a gym is the right place for their child after already practicing with them for approximately 6 months?

Having been heavily involved in cheer and now heavily involved with soccer I've seen some major differences that lead to this problem.

1. No Real Off Season
There's no real off season in cheer. Often L5s are still practicing for Worlds while the gym is advertising tryout information. There is a need for a break beyond the physical needs. A break allows us to step back, take off the rose-colored glasses and assess the year. The time to say, What went right? What went wrong? Does CP want to do this again with this gym?; without the overbearing presence of the gym asking you if you're trying out this year and giving you reasons why you should stay. We need to step back and get away from it for a minute. Being in the gym year round with no break is like being in a hamster wheel. You can never get off to see if habit trail might be a better fit.

2. Taboo of Multiple Tryouts
I do not know a single soccer player that hasn't tried out at more than one club and almost all have played at different clubs in their career. Our kids should be seen as "free agents" during cheer tryout season and no one should make them feel bad for looking at all options BUT once you've made that commitment then it should be set. There are ways for tryouts to be set up that allow gyms to compete with each other for athletes and gradually build up the teams as commitments are made. Other youth sports do it right now. We just don't demand it.

3. No Recruitment
With the rules the way they are a cheer gym can actively recruit another athlete at another gym through to the very end of the season if they wanted. The only stipulation is the November 1st release issue. In other youth sports you can talk, visit, or tryout at any club you want during tryout season but once you commit it's hands off that athlete. Another club can't even talk to you without a release and they will lose licensing if they do.

I really wish we would focus on helping to prevent an athlete in getting to the position of needing a release than trying to nit pick a rule to suit everyone's needs - which we all know it won't.

 

[quitthedrama]

We can debate the rule and all the "ifs, ands, or buts" that would make the rule better or worse but we keep missing the point on WHY is the rule needed and why do some families still feel slighted by it. Again, releasing athletes is not a major issue in other youth sports but why?!?! Are there not terrible hockey, soccer, or football clubs out there or are there other factors that lead to this? I can tell you there are a lot! So, why can cheer families not decide if a gym is the right place for their child after already practicing with them for approximately 6 months?

Having been heavily involved in cheer and now heavily involved with soccer I've seen some major differences that lead to this problem.

1. No Real Off Season
There's no real off season in cheer. Often L5s are still practicing for Worlds while the gym is advertising tryout information. There is a need for a break beyond the physical needs. A break allows us to step back, take off the rose-colored glasses and assess the year. The time to say, What went right? What went wrong? Does CP want to do this again with this gym?; without the overbearing presence of the gym asking you if you're trying out this year and giving you reasons why you should stay. We need to step back and get away from it for a minute. Being in the gym year round with no break is like being in a hamster wheel. You can never get off to see if habit trail might be a better fit.

2. Taboo of Multiple Tryouts
I do not know a single soccer player that hasn't tried out at more than one club and almost all have played at different clubs in their career. Our kids should be seen as "free agents" during cheer tryout season and no one should make them feel bad for looking at all options BUT once you've made that commitment then it should be set. There are ways for tryouts to be set up that allow gyms to compete with each other for athletes and gradually build up the teams as commitments are made. Other youth sports do it right now. We just don't demand it.

3. No Recruitment
With the rules the way they are a cheer gym can actively recruit another athlete at another gym through to the very end of the season if they wanted. The only stipulation is the November 1st release issue. In other youth sports you can talk, visit, or tryout at any club you want during tryout season but once you commit it's hands off that athlete. Another club can't even talk to you without a release and they will lose licensing if they do.

I really wish we would focus on helping to prevent an athlete in getting to the position of needing a release than trying to nit pick a rule to suit everyone's needs - which we all know it won't.

this isn't soccer.... I know of more sports that don't require a release (i.e. gymnastics) than do. However, I don't really care about what other sports do and I don't see why the comparison needs to be made. I have seen first hand athletes get deliberately manipulated and screwed over by a gym. I don't know how that is acceptable by anyone's standards.

 

[CharlotteASMom]

this isn't soccer.... I know of more sports that don't require a release (i.e. gymnastics) than do. However, I don't really care about what other sports do and I don't see why the comparison needs to be made. I have seen first hand athletes get deliberately manipulated and screwed over by a gym. I don't know how that is acceptable by anyone's standards.

And that's usually the default answer. It's a shame you wouldn't consider another sport that has these type things in place especially when they are working quite well. Again back to why are we reinventing the wheel? Cheer is am amazing sport that has it's own idiosyncrasies but not so different that it cannot fit another model.

 

[quitthedrama]

And that's usually the default answer. It's a shame you wouldn't consider another sport that has these type things in place especially when they are working quite well. Again back to why are we reinventing the wheel? Cheer is am amazing sport that has it's own idiosyncrasies but not so different that it cannot fit another model.

I didn't say I wouldn't consider another sport, but why does it automatically have to fit into your soccer model? You are the one refusing to looking at other options. Why can't it be modeled after USA Gymnastics? Why can't we be independent and say "these are the reasons for having a release, there are the reasons none should be required" and come up with something equitable on our own? I can think of several USASF rules that are not modeled after any other sport. If it is going to be strictly pro-gym (not saying I agree), then why don't we require the gym owner to prove they provided the athlete and parent (if athlete is a minor) with the rules or the link to access the rules (a signed document for the gym files would suffice) since much of the problem is that the majority of parents of minor athletes have no idea this rule exists and the rules aren't exactly easy to find? Parents aren't even given the opportunity to enroll their child in USASF membership - why the implied secrecy? If parents were required to do it themselves (another rule that I feel should be changed), then they would have to check an "I agree" box that they have reviewed all of the USASF rules and the release rule should be bolded and highlighted.

 

[CharlotteASMom]

I didn't say I wouldn't consider another sport, but why does it automatically have to fit into your soccer model? You are the one refusing to looking at other options. Why can't it be modeled after USA Gymnastics? Why can't we be independent and say "these are the reasons for having a release, there are the reasons none should be required" and come up with something equitable on our own? I can think of several USASF rules that are not modeled after any other sport. If it is going to be strictly pro-gym (not saying I agree), then why don't we require the gym owner to prove they provided the athlete and parent (if athlete is a minor) with the rules or the link to access the rules (a signed document for the gym files would suffice) since much of the problem is that the majority of parents of minor athletes have no idea this rule exists and the rules aren't exactly easy to find? Parents aren't even given the opportunity to enroll their child in USASF membership - why the implied secrecy? If parents were required to do it themselves (another rule that I feel should be changed), then they would have to check an "I agree" box that they have reviewed all of the USASF rules and the release rule should be bolded and highlighted.

I think you make some great points. Who said it had to be based on soccer? That's what I know and therefore what I'd suggest. If USA Gymnastics or Hockey or Football or Baseball or Ping Pong have better ways to handle it then we'd be smart to research that too. My biggest point however is that much of this issue could be resolved BEFORE we get to November 1st.

 

[JMW]

I'll have to look into that. Keep in mind that the hockey player needs a release before joining another program regardless the time of season and the only way a release cannot be signed is if the athlete still owes money.


Ones perception is not always reality.

The hockey rules vary by state. In Illinois, there is a two-choice rule, where (theoretically) a kid can only play for two Tier II clubs IN THEIR LIFETIME. If they want a choice back, they have to petition to AHAI, who makes the decision. The clubs can state their case, but it isn't their decision.


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[Mommatotwo]

I think the problem with the release rule now is gym owners can decide to give a release based on their personal feelings. There isn't a set criteria that has been defined as to why a release should be given or why they shouldn't. There are shady gym owners out there and they should not have the power to not release an athlete without reason.


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