All-Star Sandbagging Karma

[azmom]

There is a competition that we are going to in the next few weeks where there is a gym that is competing as a small gym. They have over 75 members at their gym but not all the teams are going to this competition. I assume they are doing this so they can compete against the small gyms and have a better chance of winning then they would if they competed against larger gyms. There are many ways to cheat at this game.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Sidenote: I think that some comps determine small gym by number of TEAMS, not number of athletes. So that may be the reason they're competing as a small.

 

[Pebbles49]

A lot of you might think I am crazy for saying this... but I think, the way to cut down on the amount of sandbagging may come about by color coded system, which would be a lot cheaper to implement than a computer coded system... Just like in the Martial Arts, there is a recognized color belt code for each level and everybody in the universe knows that a 'White' Belt are the true beginners in Martial Arts and 'Black' Belt are the advanced level athletes... No Black Belt athlete will ever wear a White Belt and if a 'White' Belt or any lesser color belt wear a 'Black' belt they will be immediately challenged on technique and knowledge... I think, in cheerleading, if they try to universally distinguish the different levels - either through colors and/or a different styling of uniform, etc... this can help with athletes not being able to cross down so many levels or the desired to want to cross down...(possibly, I think???)

I remember reading a post by someone on FierceBoard, that mentioned that you cannot tell a Level 5 NCA winner from a Tiny 1 winner, I think that might be the problem, if they can better distinguish the different levels, like at some competitions like One-Up and that Rhode Island one, where Level 5 athletes received true jackets with leather sleeves and levels 1-4 received the sweater like jackets maybe sandbagging might not be as evasive as it is.... Of course, with what cheerleading have now, most people are going to cheat if they are given a good chance to and with the knowledge that no one will recognized that their winnings came from competing against Level 1 and/or Level 2 athletes when you are considerably better than your opponent- For example- Hypothetically,
if you won a Spelling Bee competition against 1st grader and you are in 5th grade... Would you be proud to show off that trophy and tell the world about your accomplishment, if there is a most likely chance the world will find out...I think not!

 

[quitthedrama]

As long as USASF continues to be heavily influenced by Varsity, there will be minimal changes to the crossover rules and sandbagging will always exist. The majority of the Event Producers are owned by Varsity. Event Producers are in the business to make money. For example - a competition hosts 200 teams. Using an average of 20 athletes per team and 25% of the athletes being crossovers (a reasonable estimate), the EP, aka Varsity, stands to lose about $65,000 in revenue per competition by eliminating crossovers. Varsity owns 21 Competition companies per their website. If each competition company averages 10 competitions/season the revenue loss of crossovers would be over $13 million per season! It is hard for me to believe the refusal for crossover limits is not all about the almighty dollar, particularly after the last rules cycle seemed to have so much support for crossover limits.

 

[cheermuse]

There is a competition that we are going to in the next few weeks where there is a gym that is competing as a small gym. They have over 75 members at their gym but not all the teams are going to this competition. I assume they are doing this so they can compete against the small gyms and have a better chance of winning then they would if they competed against larger gyms. There are many ways to cheat at this game.

A “Small Gym” is defined as having one physical address for its location and has 75 or less athletes registered in its
competitive cheer program at the time of competition. Exhibition teams, crossover athletes, special needs teams and dance teams do not count toward the 75 or less athletes.

 

[oregongirl]

I just completed my first season as an all star parent and this issue has made me crazy. Clearly, the INTENT of creating divisions and age categories is to level the playing field. To circumvent that intent via loophole is CHEATING. You are creating an unfair advantage for your team which is cheating! Having an experienced athlete compete against a child in their first season is not fair play. It is unethical any way you slice it and it damages the reputation of cheerleading as a sport. I agree with quitthedrama that changing the rule is likely being influenced by event owners and large gyms that benefit from this practice. Many gym owners want as many banners as they can get to attract parents & athletes. Which leads me to my next rant.... there should be a minimum number of teams competing within a division in order to win. Recently I attended a national competition that awarded National Champion banners, trophies, and jackets to teams that were unopposed in their division.

 

[sarahh_cheers]

i believe the only way i can disagree with having higher level athletes on lower level teams if you have a very small gym. we have 36 cheerleaders right now and maybe around 100? dancers. one of our girls is on M1, J2 and J3 and she just got her full. she would probably be on a youth 5 if we had one. sometimes you have no other options than to put an athlete on the highest level available even if it doesn't maximize their potential.

 

[Mykidscheer]

I love when sandbagging karma rears its ugly head! Happened in OH this weekend in the Jr 1 division. A gym stacked a team and brought them chasing a Summit Bid. They didn't it get it nor did they win their division. I will just never understand how parents support this behavior by allowing their level 3, 4, or 5 kid to compete on a level 1. :banghead:

Let me set the record straight. The J1 team in question wanted to travel to Ohio for a chance at a Summit Bid because they had come so close at Cheersport. This team had come so far and some of these athletes were brand new to cheer. But they practiced hard and really pulled it together. The gym wanted to give them another chance to compete on a big stage. Some of the regular team members could not travel. The gym asked for fill-ins - some of them were higher than level 1, but 89% of the team was regular J1. Not one fill-in was true level 5. The gym doesn't have a worlds team yet - it's a young gym, only has a restricted team. Two of those fill-ins couldn't do back walkovers. One was cheering for the first time since a devastating injury back in December. Notably, the fill-ins had 2 practices to learn the entire routine. Why a parent would post something like this to create bad feelings towards a team that was just trying it's best to reach a goal is beyond me. The fact that they would enjoy it when kids are hurt or upset - it's so sad. Moral of the story - rumors are not worth believing. Neither are bitter people on Fierceboard .


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[Cheermom1969]

:enjoyshow:

 

[Pebbles49]

Let me set the record straight. The J1 team in question wanted to travel to Ohio for a chance at a Summit Bid because they had come so close at Cheersport. This team had come so far and some of these athletes were brand new to cheer. But they practiced hard and really pulled it together. The gym wanted to give them another chance to compete on a big stage. Some of the regular team members could not travel. The gym asked for fill-ins - some of them were higher than level 1, but 89% of the team was regular J1. Not one fill-in was true level 5. The gym doesn't have a worlds team yet - it's a young gym, only has a restricted team. Two of those fill-ins couldn't do back walkovers. One was cheering for the first time since a devastating injury back in December. Notably, the fill-ins had 2 practices to learn the entire routine. Why a parent would post something like this to create bad feelings towards a team that was just trying it's best to reach a goal is beyond me. The fact that they would enjoy it when kids are hurt or upset - it's so sad. Moral of the story - rumors are not worth believing. Neither are bitter people on Fierceboard .


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Wait a minute! You mean to tell me all that ranting and soap boxing proclamations over the last 2 days on sandbagging were for nothing...You mean all these 4 pages of clever materials in this post is because of bitter people... Nah, No way!!!:p

 

[5-6-7-8]

As long as USASF continues to be heavily influenced by Varsity, there will be minimal changes to the crossover rules and sandbagging will always exist. The majority of the Event Producers are owned by Varsity. Event Producers are in the business to make money. For example - a competition hosts 200 teams. Using an average of 20 athletes per team and 25% of the athletes being crossovers (a reasonable estimate), the EP, aka Varsity, stands to lose about $65,000 in revenue per competition by eliminating crossovers. Varsity owns 21 Competition companies per their website. If each competition company averages 10 competitions/season the revenue loss of crossovers would be over $13 million per season! It is hard for me to believe the refusal for crossover limits is not all about the almighty dollar, particularly after the last rules cycle seemed to have so much support for crossover limits.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner! ;)



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[12stepCheermom]

I just completed my first season as an all star parent....Recently I attended a national competition that awarded National Champion banners, trophies, and jackets to teams that were unopposed in their division.

Welcome to Allstar cheer! I've never been to a nationals where they didn't do this. It's why the whole "national champion" title doesn't mean much. It's why it's an avi banner if you paid for the fierceboard upgrade. In the situation you just said you pretty much just buy your banner, jacket and trophy. So it's tongue-in-cheek.

In all honesty, the only true "national" champions are what we call "world" champions. The rest are more regional distinctions (with the possible exception of NCA).


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[Official OWECheer]

Hey CheerBank, I am sorry if my post came off strong, but I am coming from that camp of thinkers, who feel like cheerleading can be a viable and important sport that need to work out some kinks, one of these will be sandbagging... In every new sport DNA was the recognition and legalities of each level of play... Just like in Basketball and Baseball, no sane player in the Major leagues will want to sneak onto a Minor league team and in gymnastics there are standards for each level and when you reach level 10 or the Elite level, heck no, will you step in on a level 5 team in gymnastics . But our level 5 athletes, who are at the top of the cheerleading World (no pun intended) will walk out and pretend to be a novice in the sport... No other acknowledge sport out there will conceived of doing this and this is setting us back tremendously...Just only saying!

I feel like there are business reasons behind the sand bagging, at least if smaller gyms do it. It's one thing to have tons of crossovers to maximize the number of teams, but a lot of not-so-small-not-so-big gyms do it to rack up more wins for their program in order to retain athletes and grow their reputation.

 

[Jettplane_JB]

I feel like there are business reasons behind the sand bagging, at least if smaller gyms do it. It's one thing to have tons of crossovers to maximize the number of teams, but a lot of not-so-small-not-so-big gyms do it to rack up more wins for their program in order to retain athletes and grow their reputation.

I have to disagree...every gym I've coached at has been a small gym and we've never sand bagged teams. We may have had 2 or 3 crossovers on a few teams but we worked with what we had, trained our kids properly and have beaten some of the "Biggest" gyms out there!

If you have great coaches/trainers you wont need to sandbag to gain numbers and wins! The routines and skills will speak for themselves.

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[Ld3319]

I agree totally. What I have always said about the this subject is have faith in your kids and in your ability to coach them.