All-Star Starting A Discussion: The Safety Of Spring Floor Vs... Well.. Anything Else

[King]

I do completely agree that spring floor is safer. I also think that school competitive teams should practice in an allstar gym with qualified coaches. The rules have recently begun to limit what teams can perform on the track and bball court (no double downs and no baskets.) I think this is a good thing.

I liked when high school teams competed on spring floors. But the problem was that many schools did not have a spring floor to practice on and only performed on one at competition. I know a girl who threw an arabian through to full that was so used to doing it on non-spring - she over-rotated to her face on the arabian at competition. This was an elite level 10 ex-gymnast.

There is no way schools will absorb the costs and logistics of a spring floor.

I would like a way for school competition squads to practice and compete on spring floor while preserving conservative stunting at practice and games at school. Maybe even more restrictive stunting rules for court, track and grass? And comp squads have to secure a gym location to practice at? Either allstar or gymnastics facility?

Personally I think high school should be limited to a level 3/4 mix. I don't really think there should be twisting on the hard floor. Probably no kick doubles. Probably no double downs. This isn't an extremely well thought out suggestion, so go overly go crazy from it. I am not even sure if a standing tuck should be allowed.

 

[rvnblue]

You may want to read these articles in their entirety and find out how the information was collected. The information was collected using a machine that simulates a person falling completely upside down and hitting their head before any other body part, which rarely happens. These critical heights do not account for age ranges.

 

[King]

You may want to read these articles in their entirety and find out how the information was collected. The information was collected using a machine that simulates a person falling completely upside down and hitting their head before any other body part, which rarely happens. These critical heights do not account for age ranges.

Would you not say they simulated the worst possible way someone could fall? You can heal from a broken leg, but a broken neck / brain injury is a bit different? How would you think they should have simulated the falls?

 

[Justacoach]

But if the stunt is performed correctly it does not matter the surface that it is performed on. And that is the question in all this.

Tumbling on a spring floor, actually executing the skill, is affected whether the skill goes well or doesn't go well. A spring floor is always preferred and safer. Stunting on a spring floor is not affected until the skill goes incorrectly. So the spring floor is more like a bike helmet, important if (and only if) something goes wrong. Experience makes a difference and the skill level of the athlete makes a difference. I am going to use this example purely cause it proves my point. I think that center stunt group for CEA (the Maddie one) is a very talented group. I could ask them to do a straight up stretch straight cradle possibly on hot coals and they would hit it without a problem (I would say they could hit 10,000 of those in a row). But as the difficulty of the stunt goes up (their little ball tick tock thingy) the chance of dropping goes up. If the spotter had not been there she might have hit the floor. What if they were on hard floor? What if they were on cement?

At a certain point every stunt group will drop. Then it is a matter of the surface you are on and what is the acceptable level of risk for a catastrophic injury from what height.

On Mythbusters they have they have these impact tags (I forget their actual name) that measure force. Depending on how much force is exerted the tag goes off (a little bubble breaks or something happens). It would be fun to get a dummy and some of those tags and drop onto cement, hard floor, basketball court, and spring floor form different heights. See what the difference is.

Which goes back to proper coaching. Our J4 team did a little exhibition last year and stunted on the grass. They just went straight up and hit their poses and straight cradled. They also had a coach behind every group. No one fell but you never know. These are kids that did full ups solid in their routine and fulled down easily. An inexperienced coach would have probably let them do the whole sequence full out.

 

[King]

Which goes back to proper coaching. Our J4 team did a little exhibition last year and stunted on the grass. They just went straight up and hit their poses and straight cradled. They also had a coach behind every group. No one fell but you never know. These are kids that did full ups solid in their routine and fulled down easily. An inexperienced coach would have probably let them do the whole sequence full out.

I agree. It is a coaching decision based on the experience of your athletes with the surface they were on.

BUT (and here is the big butt.... and in my head just started singing I like big butts and I cannot lie...) your kids and team weren't competing. They were exhibitioning. The fact that you chose to 'dumb down' the skills as in part influenced by the fact that you weren't going to lose if you did easier skills. If your J4 team had to compete on grass against other J4's for the title of greatest team in the universe you probably would have risked a bit more, don't you think?

 

[Justacoach]

I agree. It is a coaching decision based on the experience of your athletes with the surface they were on.

BUT (and here is the big butt.... and in my head just started singing I like big butts and I cannot lie...) your kids and team weren't competing. They were exhibitioning. The fact that you chose to 'dumb down' the skills as in part influenced by the fact that you weren't going to lose if you did easier skills. If your J4 team had to compete on grass against other J4's for the title of greatest team in the universe you probably would have risked a bit more, don't you think?

Hence why my kids cheer allstar at one of the best gyms in the country with the some of the best coaches in the industry. I know they are going to cheer in a safe gym and the coaches are going to do their absolute best to ensure the kids are ready to try new skills. I am also confident they will also be taught those skills correctly and safely.

 

[cupieqt]

I agree. It is a coaching decision based on the experience of your athletes with the surface they were on.

BUT (and here is the big butt.... and in my head just started singing I like big butts and I cannot lie...) your kids and team weren't competing. They were exhibitioning. The fact that you chose to 'dumb down' the skills as in part influenced by the fact that you weren't going to lose if you did easier skills. If your J4 team had to compete on grass against other J4's for the title of greatest team in the universe you probably would have risked a bit more, don't you think?

How many teams do you see doing their stunts outside the warm up area at competitions? Or coaches tossing their little kids around while waiting? I know many EPs have rules against it but it's still done (imagine that, coaches breaking the rules). I cringe every time I see it but I'm not the surface police so I just ignore it.

 

[King]

Hence why my kids cheer allstar at one of the best gyms in the country with the some of the best coaches in the industry. I know they are going to cheer in a safe gym and the coaches are going to do their absolute best to ensure the kids are ready to try new skills. I am also confident they will also be taught those skills correctly and safely.

I assume you are at Top Gun and I agree you are at a good gym in a good environment. But what happens at high school competitions and what is allowed there does affect you and the rest of Top Gun. I know it affects me directly and indirectly. Directly in that I can't tell you the moans and grumbles I hear in my gym about high school season and that we cannot wait until its over and the injuries can stop. Indirectly because a lot of the injuries that happen at high school can taint the image of safety for all cheerleading and limit the potential for it to grow.

 

[King]

How many teams do you see doing their stunts outside the warm up area at competitions? Or coaches tossing their little kids around while waiting? I know many EPs have rules against it but it's still done (imagine that, coaches breaking the rules). I cringe every time I see it but I'm not the surface police so I just ignore it.

Agreed, but I don't want to let that cloud the issue of performance. Yes that is an issue but it is separate from the one of actually competing in our sport.

 

[wcdad]

King as you know, I am a believer and this in my opinion, based on watching the sport, activity, industry grow over the past 16 years, that regardless of hard floor or spring floor the majority of cheerleading injuries are form over use or repetitive motion. Add in to the equation that there is no cross training utilized in any cheerleading as well as there is no off season or down time, the cheer athletes body does not get a chance to heal and get stronger. It does not matter the level or if you are stunting or tumbling. Further more does not matter the gym or team.

Pulls, strains and tares are on the rise for flyers
Stress fractures of the foot, ankle and back are on the rise because of tumbling, does not matter the type of floor
Knee injuries are on the rise do to repetitive rotation and over use.
Shoulder injuries are on the rise for bases
Stomach disorders are on the rise because of the amount of Advil that is being given to young kids for months at a time. Not just 200 mg but 800mg to a 1000mg at a time

All of these are from over use. It is my opinion that with in 10 years as the current mini and youth teams that are “hard core” continue and grow the amount of injuries will grow exponentially.

All other sports have a count on repetitive motion activities from the recreation level to the pro level. Just one example is a pitcher has a stat on his pitch count. In cheerleading you end your practice with your hardest pass. Stunts are done over and over and over. 12 months a year. Pain is a sign. There is something wrong when young adults at the age of 20, 21, 22, 23 can’t get out of bed in the morning, walk with a limp or are in pain just walking with out taking some kind of medication. We can not be blind to this, we all know many current and former cheerleader that experience this. What is scary to me is the age is getting younger.

If we are truly concerned about injuries and the health and safety of our children, and athletes than we need to adopt some type of guide lines that will address these issues as well.

We need a season, with off time.
We need to utilize cross training and develop the core.
We need to stop cross over’s

To me these are the bigger issues that need to be included in any and all discussion about safety. The type of floor is a part of the total equation.

 

[Justacoach]

I assume you are at Top Gun and I agree you are at a good gym in a good environment. But what happens at high school competitions and what is allowed there does affect you and the rest of Top Gun. I know it affects me directly and indirectly. Directly in that I can't tell you the moans and grumbles I hear in my gym about high school season and that we cannot wait until its over and the injuries can stop. Indirectly because a lot of the injuries that happen at high school can taint the image of safety for all cheerleading and limit the potential for it to grow.

Yes, of course it affects us. Kids get hurt at high school practices. The coaches down here are notorious for letting their teams do illegal stunts at games. Naples has 7 high schools and I don't think any of them have a truly qualified coach. One of our coaches coached at a high school for a year or two but then just couldn't deal with the admin anymore. The team that she had was ridiculed for performing easy clean routines that followed the rules at games while the other teams were doing hard stuff that was illegal for the surface and obviously too hard for them because they were falling all the time. (we go to a lot of the high school games - my husband loves sports) From what I have seen I don't think it would make a lot of difference if they were on spring floor or not. One team did a jump over pyramid thing and the group catching the flyer just completely missed her. She got up slowly but I think her neck was really hurt.

 

[HeatUniqueJ]

We had a discussion about spring floors or hard floors at our last Regional Cheer Association meeting. The question was if we had a problem with no longer having spring floors at our Regional and National competitons. We have been using spring floors at competitions for about 3 years now, they were introduced under the aspect of ''more safety'' for the teams. It turned out that the spring floor did not necessarily improve saftey but partly lead to teams trying things they would probably never have tried on the hard floor (especially tumbling). Well you could say it improved safety in the way that they did not kill themselves when performing skills they actually were not able to perform the proper way but i really doubt they would have eve tried the skills on hard floor. Another aspect why the spring floor should be banned is that there are no spring floors at international competitions like the ICU Worlds or the ECU European Championships.

In my opinion concerning Allstar Cheer i think that Spring Floors provide more safety when it comes to protecting joints when performing high level tumbling. I do think though that spring floors are not necessarily needed for Stunts. A Flyer should never touch the Ground , may it be Springfloor or Hard Floor. (Though i gotta admit that i have seen injuries happen due to bases not catching their flyers which could have been a LOT worse if they happened on hard floor) A Tumbler who has really good technique and skills should be able to perform his/her skills on every floor. For healths sake i would still prefer springfloor tough

 

[King]

King as you know, I am a believer and this in my opinion, based on watching the sport, activity, industry grow over the past 16 years, that regardless of hard floor or spring floor the majority of cheerleading injuries are form over use or repetitive motion. Add in to the equation that there is no cross training utilized in any cheerleading as well as there is no off season or down time, the cheer athletes body does not get a chance to heal and get stronger. It does not matter the level or if you are stunting or tumbling. Further more does not matter the gym or team.

Pulls, strains and tares are on the rise for flyers
Stress fractures of the foot, ankle and back are on the rise because of tumbling, does not matter the type of floor
Knee injuries are on the rise do to repetitive rotation and over use.
Shoulder injuries are on the rise for bases
Stomach disorders are on the rise because of the amount of Advil that is being given to young kids for months at a time. Not just 200 mg but 800mg to a 1000mg at a time

All of these are from over use. It is my opinion that with in 10 years as the current mini and youth teams that are “hard core” continue and grow the amount of injuries will grow exponentially.

All other sports have a count on repetitive motion activities from the recreation level to the pro level. Just one example is a pitcher has a stat on his pitch count. In cheerleading you end your practice with your hardest pass. Stunts are done over and over and over. 12 months a year. Pain is a sign. There is something wrong when young adults at the age of 20, 21, 22, 23 can’t get out of bed in the morning, walk with a limp or are in pain just walking with out taking some kind of medication. We can not be blind to this, we all know many current and former cheerleader that experience this. What is scary to me is the age is getting younger.

If we are truly concerned about injuries and the health and safety of our children, and athletes than we need to adopt some type of guide lines that will address these issues as well.

We need a season, with off time.
We need to utilize cross training and develop the core.
We need to stop cross over’s

To me these are the bigger issues that need to be included in any and all discussion about safety. The type of floor is a part of the total equation.

I will completely agree that the surface is part of the equation, but as often that happens in cheerleading (or lots of political issues) we compound the problem by throwing all the different issues in there and things get off track, people lose focus, and then nothing is solved.

Yes cheerleading is about receptive motion. One of the reasons we don't have an off season is the skills are highly perishable and the industry itself hasn't found a way to exists unless our season is year round. I would like to discuss these points as well but can we table it until a future date and just focus on the surface for now. Tackle each issue one at a time and raise the overall awareness of each point one at a time. Nothing kills good discussion like a lack of focus.

 

[King]

We had a discussion about spring floors or hard floors at our last Regional Cheer Association meeting. The question was if we had a problem with no longer having spring floors at our Regional and National competitons. We have been using spring floors at competitions for about 3 years now, they were introduced under the aspect of ''more safety'' for the teams. It turned out that the spring floor did not necessarily improve saftey but partly lead to teams trying things they would probably never have tried on the hard floor (especially tumbling). Well you could say it improved safety in the way that they did not kill themselves when performing skills they actually were not able to perform the proper way but i really doubt they would have eve tried the skills on hard floor. Another aspect why the spring floor should be banned is that there are no spring floors at international competitions like the ICU Worlds or the ECU European Championships.

In my opinion concerning Allstar Cheer i think that Spring Floors provide more safety when it comes to protecting joints when performing high level tumbling. I do think though that spring floors are not necessarily needed for Stunts. A Flyer should never touch the Ground , may it be Springfloor or Hard Floor. (Though i gotta admit that i have seen injuries happen due to bases not catching their flyers which could have been a LOT worse if they happened on hard floor) A Tumbler who has really good technique and skills should be able to perform his/her skills on every floor. For healths sake i would still prefer springfloor tough

The entire problem with what you just said is that you just contradicted yourself in one sentence.

 

[HeatUniqueJ]

I know , i'm kinda torn because i really think it IS possible to perform Stunts on the Hard Floor without killing yourself, we do it all the time at practise, but on the other hand it is still a problem that there are teams out there that overestimate themselves. I think if there was a way to provide more safety training this could maybe be changed