All-Star Starting A Discussion: The Safety Of Spring Floor Vs... Well.. Anything Else

[wcdad]

I will completely agree that the surface is part of the equation, but as often that happens in cheerleading (or lots of political issues) we compound the problem by throwing all the different issues in there and things get off track, people lose focus, and then nothing is solved.

Yes cheerleading is about receptive motion. One of the reasons we don't have an off season is the skills are highly perishable and the industry itself hasn't found a way to exists unless our season is year round. I would like to discuss these points as well but can we table it until a future date and just focus on the surface for now. Tackle each issue one at a time and raise the overall awareness of each point one at a time. Nothing kills good discussion like a lack of focus.

Fair enough.. and good point.

 

[King]

I know , i'm kinda torn because i really think it IS possible to perform Stunts on the Hard Floor without killing yourself, we do it all the time at practise, but on the other hand it is still a problem that there are teams out there that overestimate themselves. I think if there was a way to provide more safety training this could maybe be changed

I used this analogy before in another thread. When you drive a car and go around a curve they usually lower the speed limit so that all cars can acceptably handle the turn without an accident. If the turn is longer and on a highway you can obviously go faster than you can on a turn that is shorter and sharper on a local road. But you can still perform the turn.

What you can do on a hard floor should be more limited than what you can do on a spring floor. Doesn't that make sense?

 

[CGAcheer]

But if the stunt is performed correctly it does not matter the surface that it is performed on. And that is the question in all this.

Tumbling on a spring floor, actually executing the skill, is affected whether the skill goes well or doesn't go well. A spring floor is always preferred and safer. Stunting on a spring floor is not affected until the skill goes incorrectly. So the spring floor is more like a bike helmet, important if (and only if) something goes wrong. Experience makes a difference and the skill level of the athlete makes a difference. I am going to use this example purely cause it proves my point. I think that center stunt group for CEA (the Maddie one) is a very talented group. I could ask them to do a straight up stretch straight cradle possibly on hot coals and they would hit it without a problem (I would say they could hit 10,000 of those in a row). But as the difficulty of the stunt goes up (their little ball tick tock thingy) the chance of dropping goes up. If the spotter had not been there she might have hit the floor. What if they were on hard floor? What if they were on cement?

At a certain point every stunt group will drop. Then it is a matter of the surface you are on and what is the acceptable level of risk for a catastrophic injury from what height.

On Mythbusters they have they have these impact tags (I forget their actual name) that measure force. Depending on how much force is exerted the tag goes off (a little bubble breaks or something happens). It would be fun to get a dummy and some of those tags and drop onto cement, hard floor, basketball court, and spring floor form different heights. See what the difference is.

Sports science did an episode where they dropped a dummy cheerleader from 15-20 ft and compared to the impacts of other sports and i think it was the hardest, at least harder than a football tackle

 

[CGAcheer]

So should we change the typical all-star warmups of hard floor then spring tumble strip then full size hard floor?

 

[Level5Mom]

Can we buffer the effects of hard floor falls with saftey equipment to make it equal a spring floor?

 

[imrichhowboutu]

You may want to read these articles in their entirety and find out how the information was collected. The information was collected using a machine that simulates a person falling completely upside down and hitting their head before any other body part, which rarely happens. These critical heights do not account for age ranges.

I would say the majority of falls (where the flyer hits the ground) I see involve the flyer falling on her shoulders, neck, face/head. Sometimes they get their arms in front of them too. Most inexperienced bases and some experienced ones too seem to hold on to the flyers feet while she is falling. Kids don't seem to understand that if you are holding her feet in the air, her weight will come down on her upper body.

 

[Justacoach]

I would say the majority of falls (where the flyer hits the ground) I see involve the flyer falling on her shoulders, neck, face/head. Sometimes they get their arms in front of them too. Most inexperienced bases and some experienced ones too seem to hold on to the flyers feet while she is falling. Kids don't seem to understand that if you are holding her feet in the air, her weight will come down on her upper body.

Kids got ripped about this one in practice a few weeks ago! Coaches went over again how to safely bring the flyers down - bring their feet down bases and then catch her lol.

 

[King]

So should we change the typical all-star warmups of hard floor then spring tumble strip then full size hard floor?

Interesting question. The argument could be made that the warming up of certain skills that are not performance wise impacted by a spring floor so that hard could still be used.

Of course I think warmups should be one entire floor that is spring for 12 minutes.

 

[King]

Can we buffer the effects of hard floor falls with saftey equipment to make it equal a spring floor?

I'm not sure safety equipment (outside of a spring floor) would be practical. Seems like any type of protective clothing would impede the ability to execute skills.

 

[weheartcheer]

Here is a link to the study that Terry was referencing in her article. It was published in the Journal of Athletic Training almost two years ago.

The Potential for Brain Injury on Selected Surfaces Used by Cheerleaders - Brenda J. Shields, MS and Gary A. Smith, MD, DrPH

 

[Mclovin]

I am DREADING my daughter entering high school because of hard floor tumbling. I would be so happy if she just chose not to do high school cheer at all just because of this reason. She has been in all star cheer for 8 years and has never had a cheer-related injury beyond anything minor (sprains, strains, achilles problems, etc.) I have heard so many horror stories from people about how hard the tumbling is on the joints on hard floors. We don't have insurance so the thought of a major injury because of that stupid floor just stresses me out.

As far as stunting is concerned, I have seen some pretty hard falls to the head on a hard floor (HS mats) and never seen anyone incur anything more severe than a mild/moderate concussion. Obviously a spring floor would have hurt less, but I have seen just as many concussions incurred while stunting on a spring floor as well. So I'm not sure what the true difference is between the two floors for stunting. It seems logical that springs would help soften the blow, but in the end, the diagnosis ends up the same regardless of which surface the head impacts.

In the end, I wish high school cheer was just sideline and they would leave the competitive cheer to all star gyms. Obviously this is a very selfish opinion, but I dread the days my girls want to do competitive cheer with their high school...

 

[King]

I am DREADING my daughter entering high school because of hard floor tumbling. I would be so happy if she just chose not to do high school cheer at all just because of this reason. She has been in all star cheer for 8 years and has never had a cheer-related injury beyond anything minor (sprains, strains, achilles problems, etc.) I have heard so many horror stories from people about how hard the tumbling is on the joints on hard floors. We don't have insurance so the thought of a major injury because of that stupid floor just stresses me out.

As far as stunting is concerned, I have seen some pretty hard falls to the head on a hard floor (HS mats) and never seen anyone incur anything more severe than a mild/moderate concussion. Obviously a spring floor would have hurt less, but I have seen just as many concussions incurred while stunting on a spring floor as well. So I'm not sure what the true difference is between the two floors for stunting. It seems logical that springs would help soften the blow, but in the end, the diagnosis ends up the same regardless of which surface the head impacts.

In the end, I wish high school cheer was just sideline and they would leave the competitive cheer to all star gyms. Obviously this is a very selfish opinion, but I dread the days my girls want to do competitive cheer with their high school...

I have quite a few years before my family will deal with that but my gut tells me no high school competition, just sidelines, for my daughter.

 

[King]

Here are those mythbusters stickers I was talking about: http://www.shockwatch.com/impact-tilt/impact-indicator/selection_guide.php#SWLabel

I guess the question is are they refined enough to actually detect anything? I could buy 4 of each, get a dummy, throw them on the dummy, drop the dummy from a set distance, lets start at 4 feet, and increase by a foot each time until all the stickers break. Do it on both surfaces. Film it. call it a day?

 

[Mclovin]

I have quite a few years before my family will deal with that but my gut tells me no high school competition, just sidelines, for my daughter.

My oldest starts next year.... :(

 

[King]

My oldest starts next year.... :(

Let me say I would have no problem forbidding high school competition as it is now if I had to. As the way it is now and for what I see there is an extraordinary amount of injuries for how short the season is. It is insane. At one point we had this one stunt group with 3 of the 4 people injured to where they couldn't practice because of high school cheer injuries (and they all went to different high schools).