All-Star Too Many Boys On The Floor

[ACEDAD]

IO5

kk

 

[cheer8]

..While I in some ways could possibly agree with the spirit of your post, there are some things that just hurt my soul:
*Tumbling- I can't speak for every country, but comparing gymnasts in the Olympics to being able to learn to tumble for cheer is, to me, like apples and oranges. It seems very naive to assume that just because someone has a gymnastics gym somewhere in their country, that they will be churning out level 5 tumbling right from the get-go. Isn't that why WE OURSELVES created 4.2? Senior restricted 5? How many posts are on here about athletes who excel at stunting but struggle with tumbling? How many posts are by people ranting and raving at sub-standard coaches trying to push kids into stuff they're not ready for? We don't know WHAT sort of coaching is available/they can afford..plus the majority of the int'l kids are older, coming from MUCH smaller countries than ours. And we invented 4.2 for people JUST LIKE THEM. Are they vastly improving? Sure. But who's the closest to us? Canada. And they're a larger country with easier access to what we offer cheer-wise. When's the last time you saw a UK, Irish, or South African Olympic gymnastics team? (No offense to any of those people- I love and respect all of you, as you know :)).
*Stunting- An area that I'd say they're catching up to us the fastest. Why? Because for MANY people (and lots of us on here can attest to): it's easier to learn to stunt and stunt well than tumble. You're also, however, suggesting they just teach themselves. Which may not be bad for an elevator, but can cause bad technique and injuries when we're going for the harder stuff like full-ups. Especially if they don't have a good mat to fall on if they aren't sturdy.
*Jumps- Fair enough. Although technique like Rays and SOT is clearly a special brand of something..
*Dance- You clearly didn't look at the Large Senior scores. Just 'cause you can 'dance', doesn't mean it scores well. They can dance, I'm sure. But choreo (which again, either costs some cash/requires someone who knows what they're doing OR taking choreo from another team, which is frown upon here) isn't all that simple, or their wouldn't have been a 4-pt dance spread between the top 3 teams..
*Coaches- Good coaches are hard to come by in AMERICA, plain and simple. This is improving, I'm sure. But I don't wanna know how many bad coaches exist elsewhere, we've got plenty enough here as is.

My point being: It's very easy to brush it off and say, 'Well, WE developed this sport ourselves so you should just be able to teach yourselves as well!' But this is NOWHERE NEAR comparable to soccer in the sense that the rules/skills for soccer are very simple. Pass, run, score, defend. WAY more people can kick a ball than throw a decent tuck jump. Now the intricacies and technique require mastery, but even if we're not the best at soccer, we still teach it to our 5 year olds. Until other countries (besides Canada) are getting the mass numbers enrolled in cheer at a young age like we are, it's pretty arrogant (in my opinion) to just say 'Learn it or deal.' As many of them have said: They know they're not perfectly on par with us skill-wise, and they're ok with that. They're happy to learn and grow, which they do by watching us and drawing up interest in their own countries by talking about Worlds. But I think we often take for granted the ease of access to facilities and equipment. It may not be the be-all-end-all, but MAN does it make a difference. You ever try to teach yourself a back handspring on the grass? No? I ended up nearly snapping my neck. Don't suggest it.

Sorry for hurting your soul :confused: but Everyone starts somewhere, so you are telling me that we need to hold their hand till they get better? I think different. One person made up a skill in the US such as hurkey did... Everyone saw it and learned it on their own... whats different.

Kentucky University was the first team I saw ever do tic tocs way back in the day, i took my small senior coed team in 1997 and did stretch stretch tic tocs, I didnt get instruction, we saw it and tried it... I was a new coach then. I had no one hold my hand and make a score sheet for me when I was new at something... why start now.

Tumbling- if you make it harder then it will be harder, make it easy and it come easy... your choice... If you are athletic then tumbling comes eay... I have sen athletes that have never cheered or tumbled a day in there life come in and learn tumbling... It's how you teach it and like I said if you don't have the source then look somewhere else for it... i know hwat people are going to say, "they can't afford it" well half the gyms in US can't afford great coaches...but if we in the US and canada or some other countries that are coming up get held back on the score sheet in tumbling we are hurting all our athletes just to have a company make money and the better teams from what ever country only get a very very very small percentage on tumbling that Allstars and fans of the big dog tumblers strive on, hmmmm

and obviously you had nothing to do with soccer b/c there is way way way more to it than you posted...

I stand by my post and i got some shimmy's so other must feel the same! Thanks for shimmy-ing! LOL

 

[MyssMyst]

It is also common knowledge people sign things without reading them.

And do you know how well this excuse holds up with the merchants I deal with on a day to day basis? Sorry, in the business world, that doesn't fly. If you didn't read what you signed, tough beans. You suck it up and face the music.

 

[luvhim381]

Just a random thought... I'm pretty sure the reason Bangkok wasn't at ICU or Worlds last year had to do with those Volcano eruptions and not being able to leave their country and NOT b/c of anything else last year...

Bangkok was at Worlds last year. Check the International Open 5 division!!!

 

[MissBee]

Oh no! Absolutely not. It is supposed to let you know that there was not one intelligent thought in your post.

I think what you meant was:
What you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no shimmies, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[cheerislove8]

Bangkok was at Worlds last year. Check the International Open 5 division!!!

Bangkok compete level 5? I highly doubt that would happen. I'm also almost 100% sure that they didn't come to Worlds at all last year, whether it had to do with the volcano eruption or not.

 

[glittergirl]

Bangkok compete level 5? I highly doubt that would happen. I'm also almost 100% sure that they didn't come to Worlds at all last year, whether it had to do with the volcano eruption or not.

I just checked VOD and there was a team called BMC Benchama Maharat School from Thailand who wore the same exact uniforms as Bangkok competing in IOC5.

 

[kristenthegreat]

Sorry for hurting your soul :confused: but Everyone starts somewhere, so you are telling me that we need to hold their hand till they get better? I think different. One person made up a skill in the US such as hurkey did... Everyone saw it and learned it on their own... whats different.

and obviously you had nothing to do with soccer b/c there is way way way more to it than you posted...

I stand by my post and i got some shimmy's so other must feel the same! Thanks for shimmy-ing! LOL

..I played soccer for 12 years. A year on all-star, and a couple years watching my brother/sister play allstar (all that running up and down a field isn't my thing) :) But I stand by what I said- soccer is easier to learn the basics of than cheer is, and I think it requires a similar type of athleticism as to other sports we as a country excel at. We have a much greater soccer presence here (percentage-wise) than other countries have for cheer in THEIR respective countries.

I think you meant well, and I get the spirit of your post (which I think I wrote in my original bit), but the tone of it sort-of put me off. Obviously they're going to get there eventually, but it seemed like you wanted them to get there TOMORROW and be perfect. Which is not the case..and it seemed like you were dismissing the mitigating factors that put us in this situation in the first place. And it's great YOU or someone you know is a good tumbling coach-but what if they don't have good tumbling coaches? Kinda brings us back full circle..it's all well and good to speak in hypothetical about what they should/shouldn't/can/will do, but we don't know what it's like over there (wherever there is!). I'd wager they're doing the best than can with what they have. They're where we were 10 years ago. And it took us that long to be as good as we are now. The fact that they're catching up relatively quickly in most areas is admirable.

I got a shimmy or so too, so I'd wager the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the middle..as always :D

 

[cheererinIL]

Bangkok compete level 5? I highly doubt that would happen. I'm also almost 100% sure that they didn't come to Worlds at all last year, whether it had to do with the volcano eruption or not.

I don't know about what level they competed, but my sister and I have only been at Worlds this year & last year and we remembered them from last year and were looking forward to them this year. We may have seen them somewhere else? But I'm nearly positive it was at Worlds 2010.

 

[NJ Coach]

Last year's team was not the same as this years. The Level 6 team hasn't been there in 2 years. I remember there being a rumor last year that they weren't allowed to come because of all the political unrest that was taking place in Thailand at the time. Don't know how true that was because there was another Thai team in attendance, but that's what I heard.

 

[xtremeteal4life]

I realize I'm coming late in the game and I apologize if I happen to repeat something already said, but I'm not reading 22 pages.....so here it goes

I do not buy into the whole, "they don't know English so maybe they didn't understand the rules" and here's why...
Did they follow all the other rules in their routine or did they break other rules? It appears they followed all the other rules, so they clearly understand the rules of this sport in this arena, no? Out of all of the rules in the rule book, the easiest one to decipher is the number of boys and girls allowed in addition to minimum and maximum age limits. Some of the other rules are so complicated that even American coaches aren't aware of the legality of certain stunts, etc.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that they followed all of the other rules, but didn't understand number rule. Also, I'm not sure if they speak English or not (although let's be honest, most foreigners know our language better than we do :confused:) but that doesn't exempt them from the rules. Look at the Olympics...do they let people get by on a technicality simple due to their lack of knowledge regarding the language? Also, I could probably copy/paste the USASF rules into google translate or something similar and come up with the translation even if I didn't speak English...right?

Having said that, their routine was phenomenal and it would make me sad if they had it taken away from them...but rules are rules. I'm curious though...even if they had the correct amount of boys on the floor, what's everyone's opinion regarding whether or not it would have made enough of a difference for another team to win?

 

[Mr May]

This entire situation is very unfortunate. As I was just an observer, i really have no dog in this fight, i just find it sad that now everyone is doubting the one orginization that was actually doing something(vs just talking about it) to legitimize the cheer community. I do not know the motives behind what happened, I just believe it is a negative to everyone involved from the top to the bottom. Fans, coaches and competitors feel cheated. USASF/IASF people now have to defend themselves and their actions. Even Thailand has now gone from Cinderella to the ugly step sister. They will forever be looked at as the team who was given a gift or cheated, both terrible. And if you do not believe peoples perceptions change, what will be the first thing you do when you see them next year at worlds? Count how many guys are on the floor, i think so. Of everything that has happened, the worst thing is as much as i try to wrap my head around it, what is the answer in this situation? i am not for or against any specific action in this situation, but what should they do? if they strip the title, how does that fix what happened? if they keep the title how does that make things better for next year? as a former gymtyme/louisville athlete, i hate it for them. seeing things long term, can i ask if in ten years there are true international teams competing and keeping up with the US, and this incident pushed us in that direction would you still be mad? i dont think an issue as complex as this is so black and white. i am 100% for following the rules, but life is not so easy. people make mistakes, and here we are. so i ask again, what do we do and how do we move forward? what action can fix this vs dwelling on what everyone percieves as the wrongs done. it happened, and that wont change, lets make positive steps forward.

 

[WyldWon]

The rules people in the warmup room, all dressed in black USASF shirts with Safety Judge on the sleeve, were there to let coaches know about anything in their routine(s) that broke the General or Level 5/6 Rules. When notifying the coaches they had to be able to cite the exact rule broken, in case the coach asked, and be able to show it to them in the rules books. Referencing the book is something that had to be done, not because of a lack of knowledge, but because of the procedures they were asked to follow. Anything noticed, grey area, "performance error", changed in the warmup room or not, was relayed to the rules people at the scoring table. From that point it was in the scoring tables' hands because deductions were only given based on what was done on the main floor.

They people in the warmup room were also asked to let the coaches know what would be considered Out of Bounds for the weekend. They were not there to ensure a team had the correct number or composition of participants, to check any participant's age, or any of the other things it's been stated or implied they didn't do. Maybe they'll have additional responsibilities next Worlds, but didn't for Worlds 2011.

Our team was screwed over by these so called USASF safety judges at Worlds...still upset and bitter to tell the story but they are worthless in my eyes.....

 

[luvhim381]

Last year's team was not the same as this years. The Level 6 team hasn't been there in 2 years. I remember there being a rumor last year that they weren't allowed to come because of all the political unrest that was taking place in Thailand at the time. Don't know how true that was because there was another Thai team in attendance, but that's what I heard.

It was the same team. The same guy that I traded shirts with last year was on this years team again. And we traded shirts again?! I mean unless they are allowed to go to more than one school! I don't know! And they had 15 boys last yr too :) But it doesn't matter. They will fix it for next year. Let them have their moment (whether it's fair or not). Yes it sucks, but whatever. They still gave a great show!

 

[ztaprincess]

so i ask again, what do we do and how do we move forward? what action can fix this vs dwelling on what everyone percieves as the wrongs done. it happened, and that wont change, lets make positive steps forward.

Problem is the USASF/IASF has yet to answer why the illegal elements of their routine were overlooked. Until the scores and breakdowns are released I don't believe there is a way to move forward. There are questions left unanswered. Sure the question of the number of athletes was answered but that isn't the only rule broken. I think the illegal elements being overlooked is more important then the number of boys on the mat because it is a safety issue. All it takes is the USASF/IASF to step up and explain how things happened the way they did. The breakdowns will have some answers but I have a feeling it will lead to even more questions. They just have to not be shady about it and let people know what is what. The ball is in their court right now, but until they step up nothing positive can come of it.

*I do want to say I appreciate the comments from Andre and Les because they did step up and answer some questions, but that doesn't excuse everyone else involved.