All-Star Too Many Boys On The Floor

[coachrah]

I think each of your statements has gone beyond just the scope of this thread and maybe it's time to start a new one. Regardless:

1. It is my understanding that the school involved went to the event producer (not the governing body because there is not one for college cheer) and asked to remedy the situation. NCA was asked to investigate, but never had to because CSLB gave up the title. We don't really know what NCAs response would have been. To keep that related to this thread, Bangkok would have to go to the Worlds Committe and say they don't feel right about all this and want to and an investigation should be launched IF GT, TG, or Texas request it to the Disciplinary or International Sanctioning Committees.

2. My understanding is this is not an issue of illegal team members, it's improper rostering. Just trying to keep that straight. (were the team members not eligible to compete at worlds vs and improperly structured team)

3. There is always debate about sport vs industry. The term is not as important as everyone understanding that there is currently no mistaking everything about this sport is driven by the companies that run it, not the governing body. The governing body has been very busy putting out guidelines, but has very little power (in my opinion) because it has poor members hip and very little support form all sides.

You may not like it, but none of this is ubsurd, it's reality.

I don't think any of my statements went beyond the scope of this thread. I appreciate that you want to be a peacemaker and problem solver but your response that basically expecting " transparency" to be released is not in line with a governing body's purpose, is therefore, in my opinion absurd. Governing bodies are set up for the greater good and have a succint purpose. So move onto another topic is your solution?

1. Next USA Cheer has taken claim to the fact that they govern "all things cheer" and that includes suppossedly the collegiate arena. To keep that related to THIS thread, if Bangkok (like CSLB) needs to take responsibility to relinquish, does that mean the team that lost to the blatant violations has no rights, nor do the affiliated members who feel a USA team was wronged. What if Stephen F. Austin turned in the violation? Would it be said "Don't go away mad just go away" because we need the team that violated rules to step up and give it back. Do you think the IOC operates this way?

2. Isn't improper rostering and illegal rostering kinda sorta one in the same? Either way, doesn't the use of either effect the outcome of the competition's true champion? So your point?

3. The governing body has very little power? That in itself, if true by your words, is an issue in itself. Who has the power?

Finally, this is reality. Really? Well apparently the thousands of views say that this REALITY is a NIGHTMARE. So you are right no truth-seekers allowed...lets move on to the next unsolved problem with no ability to solve the problem.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

2. My understanding is this is not an issue of illegal team members, it's improper rostering. Just trying to keep that straight. (were the team members not eligible to compete at worlds vs and improperly structured team)

And the issue of the illegal elements in the routine itself. Which I notice keeps getting ignored, despite the fact that people keep bringing it up. Yes, the title of the thread is "Too Many Boys on the Floor?", but the illegal elements were brought up after that, and now they are an issue as well. As a matter of fact, they are probably MORE of an issue to most people. WHY were they ignored? Where are the deductions?

As a mom, especially a mom with kids who are not on Worlds teams, I can somewhat see how you think I really don't have a right to demand an explanation (I hate the word "expect" - I think people can expect anything they want and never get it...I feel like we are more demanding an explanation) But you know, I spend thousands of dollars a year on this - literally about $20,000 for 2 kids if you count transportation to and from the gym and travel. And all of this is because they love doing this, and they dream about going to Worlds. So I'm sorry, but as a parent I'm sitting here looking at this thinking...hmmmm, is this dream really worth all this? Seems like the dream could quickly become a nightmare, which is really not what I'm looking for for $20,000/year. Because I promise you, if I was the parent of one of those athletes on ANY team in that division no one would hear the end of it from me.

The only teams truly affected would be the OTHER international teams that unintentionally used more than 12 boys and either did or did not get called for the infraction. Would other teams placements have been adjusted?

And the OTHER International teams that intentionally cut down to 12 boys as the rules stated. Don't you think this would affect them too? Any team in that division that followed the rules has GOT TO be sitting here thinking "Well, yeah, with 3 extra boys we could have also done amazing pyramids! Guess that'll teach us to follow the rules..." So really the whole division is affected.

I mean if Cali Small Senior decided to throw 3 boys on their team they could have gotten first right? Because surely those 3 boys could have helped that tumbling score a lot. Now it sounds absurd when we're talking about a US team in an All Girl division. But why is it any more absurd? ANY ONE of those teams could have placed higher with more boys to work with. Cheating, whether intentional or not, is cheating - in ANY DIVISION.

Sorry, the whole division should be raising holy He!! right now.

 

[tumbleyoda]

I don't think any of my statements went beyond the scope of this thread. I appreciate that you want to be a peacemaker and problem solver but your response that basically expecting " transparency" to be released is not in line with a governing body's purpose, is therefore, in my opinion absurd. Governing bodies are set up for the greater good and have a succint purpose. So move onto another topic is your solution?

1. Next USA Cheer has taken claim to the fact that they govern "all things cheer" and that includes suppossedly the collegiate arena. To keep that related to THIS thread, if Bangkok (like CSLB) needs to take responsibility to relinquish, does that mean the team that lost to the blatant violations has no rights, nor do the affiliated members who feel a USA team was wronged. What if Stephen F. Austin turned in the violation? Would it be said "Don't go away mad just go away" because we need the team that violated rules to step up and give it back. Do you think the IOC operates this way?

2. Isn't improper rostering and illegal rostering kinda sorta one in the same? Either way, doesn't the use of either effect the outcome of the competition's true champion? So your point?

3. The governing body has very little power? That in itself, if true by your words, is an issue in itself. Who has the power?

Finally, this is reality. Really? Well apparently the thousands of views say that this REALITY is a NIGHTMARE. So you are right no truth-seekers allowed...lets move on to the next unsolved problem with no ability to solve the problem.

What it sounds like to me - and of course I could be wrong - is if those in the division don't band together and complain directly to USASF then it don't matter. I hope this is not the case because I thought USASF was coming out of this mentality. That was why I was so against USASF when I first got on the boards years ago. If they are not going to enforce their own rules then they are a joke and we have been had. If they wont enforce the rules at their only Event - what makes us think that they will willingly enforce the rules anywhere else?

On the improper vs illegal rostering that is another one of those loopholes you gotta look out for. This is what has burned me up the most over the years with USASF. Where the majority of gyms using common sense (not leagalese) read, understand and abide by the rules one way, someone else who inevitibly always seems to be a well connected to the powers that be gym does it a different way and get away with what the vast majority in the industry understood to be illegal.

If you take the deduction for one team, you take it for every team. You will never escape the cries of favortism, cronyism, etc until you do. I don't believe that will ever happen until the judges division is separated, organized, trained, and run soley as a judging operation with minimal to no connection to comp companies or the USASF.
Make no mistake USASF has all the power it needs and then some. Why they wont enforce their own rules and the speculation that arises from that only erodes any confidence people have placed in them over the years.

 

[SharkDad]

@kingston I know you are being cautious based on your involvement in the division. IMO the most powerful request for anything to be done or formall answered would have to come from you and the other coaches in this division. I would hope a well thought out request for response from you and other coaches would be received and responded to in an equally respectful manner.

@cheerinfo @coachrah @Just-a-Mom I think everyone has a right to expect the reasonable action and correction when mistakes are being made from their governing body. It is great to have a place to dicussin them and maybe even vent if you are. That is usually not going to get any action though. I'll start a thread to see if we can get a coherent list of questions answered regarding Worlds.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

@kingston I know you are being cautious based on your involvement in the division. IMO the most powerful request for anything to be done or formall answered would have to come from you and the other coaches in this division. I would hope a well thought out request for response from you and other coaches would be received and responded to in an equally respectful manner.

@cheerinfo @coachrah @Just-a-Mom I think everyone has a right to expect the reasonable action and correction when mistakes are being made from their governing body. It is great to have a place to dicussin them and maybe even vent if you are. That is usually not going to get any action though. I'll start a thread to see if we can get a coherent list of questions answered regarding Worlds.

I am definitely a very proactive person, not reactive (ask Chicago Public Schools...:eek:). When I feel like something is wrong, I will usually fight it until it's either righted or I've been convinced that I'm wrong. In this case I feel like my only "rights" to this are to vent on a message board - my kids aren't on Worlds teams, I'm not a coach or a gym owner...so there's not much I could write to someone that would really hold any water. I'll check out your other thread though. I'd love to be more involved in this type of thing. The more I learn the better prepared I'll be if (when?) my girls ever are on Worlds teams.

 

[SharkDad]

Here you go. http://fierceboard.com/threads/what-questions-do-you-want-answered-about-worlds.15908/

Most everyone in this thread is looking out for the best interest of the sport. But then I posted a thread of things to fix in the USASF and haven't gotten any responses. http://fierceboard.com/threads/how-to-fix-the-usasf.15747/#post-368137

Posting in this this thread is a great way to share ideas but it is not doing anything to help provide a solution.

 

[Emily]

The issue being the way the award was given there was no affected team placement. If Bangkok got an inflation from 3rd to 1st (which would explain the lack of 3rd place in a 1st place tie, lack of scoresheets, messup of announcement of places, confusion by everyone... the list goes on?) then everyone ended up the exact same as if they didn't receive first.

The only teams truly affected would be the OTHER international teams that unintentionally used more than 12 boys and either did or did not get called for the infraction. Would other teams placements have been adjusted?

The other issue is that we are truly all affected, but it is a lose lose situation to argue over it. How does gym owner A that does not have a IOC6 team argue that Bangkok should have been infracted? It seems petty on his part that he has something against Bangkok. The trouble is it truly weakens peoples view and perception of the USASF and opens the door for MORE paranoia and falsities about what goes on in our sport. A false first to push an agenda has little short term affect (people smart enough to get it get pissed off) but more it unsettles the foundation of what will happen in the future. Know a gym that is cheating? Why tell the USASF if you believe they just do what they want. It weakens the fabric of what we are trying to create. And, next year, when Bangkok competes again what is the first thing you are going to do? Count the number of boys on the floor. IF with 12 boys their routine isnt half as great as this year you will always just say they won because they were allowed to have more boys. If they call them on all the illegal stuff next year you will just say they won this year because they were allowed to compete illegal moves. Or if they ARENT called on anything next year than a negative vibe will burn because people will say the USASF allows them to do illegal stuff because they fly along way to be here. This isn't a win win for anyone.

With all these things with Bangkok going on, I'm wondering how in the world did they (=the USASF) catch the illegal athlete that was performing with the team from Germany. They were even disqualified for the illegal athlete (one person was too young to compete in IOC6). They were a team that flew a long way to be there, too - but they now have to live with the consequences of the disqualification and not placing at all, whereas Bangkok did not have to experience any consequences at all (neither for too many boys on the floor, nor for the illegal elements) - that's at least the information I got as of right now.
If the USASF decides to "punish" (I'm missing the right english word right now :confused:) teams for illegalities, they should do it for all of them and not for a chose few teams.

 

[yojaehs]

I also find it amusing that the USASF Safety judges and rules committee were so STRICT on every other team at Worlds. I mean I heard left and right about someone getting deducted for this prep that went to high or this music time limit, I mean there were LOTS of infractions that were caught in the warm up room as well as on the comp floor. With that being said, I just want to know HOW this just slipped through the cracks, not just the numbers (which that alone ANY team should be DQ'ed and if you don't have a Safety Judge that doesn't know how many people should be on the floor they should be fired) and if there is a question, just ask any one of the THOUSANDS of people in attendance, they coulda told you, I still don't buy that. Also HOW DID THE SPOTTED TUMBLING AND PYRAMID DISMOUNTS JUST NOT GET SEEN!? Common, really? I have stated many times before that the USASF has done many positives for industry and I will continue to support but in this situation I feel answers are DESERVED.
@SharkDad you have often times been a calming voice and even more often a voice of reason. My question to you in regards to "deserving" a response from the USASF, do you not feel that as a paying customer, that ALL Worlds participants and coaches DESERVE and answer? I do. I feel that USASF as a "non-profit" governing which the entire cheer community has bought (literally) into has made a HUGE mistake (s) and YES I do feel that as a supporting member I deserve an answer. And I feel even MORE SO for those that have teams in that division. What if F5 had 40 girls on the floor and won!? You mean to tell me that no one should question that!?

 

[King]

With all these things with Bangkok going on, I'm wondering how in the world did they (=the USASF) catch the illegal athlete that was performing with the team from Germany. They were even disqualified for the illegal athlete (one person was too young to compete in IOC6). They were a team that flew a long way to be there, too - but they now have to live with the consequences of the disqualification and not placing at all, whereas Bangkok did not have to experience any consequences at all (neither for too many boys on the floor, nor for the illegal elements) - that's at least the information I got as of right now.
If the USASF decides to "punish" (I'm missing the right english word right now :confused:) teams for illegalities, they should do it for all of them and not for a chose few teams.

Please ask that question as an addendum in the thread sharkdad started. It is a worth question. Because the ICU allows 15 and up for participants and more than 12 boys. If that team from Germany was at all the same or related to the ICU team than they may have a case for not disqualifying them?

 

[NJ Coach]

I'm less upset now about the whole too many boys issue. What concerns me at this point is why legalities were not called. The USASF needs to own up to screwing up the judging of this division. Ignoring it and hoping we'll all go away is not going to solve anything. There was obviously a break down somewhere. It needs to be fixed so situations like this don't happen again. They need to admit that the entire thing is one big FUBAR of a situation.

 

[ztaprincess]

The USASF doesn't have to give answers to anyone, but if they don't more and more people are going to think they are nothing but a joke. Sorry if that sounds harsh in any way but it is how I truly feel.
I know that a member of Gym Tyme's team posted about how happy the team was when Bangkok won and that they basically weren't anti-Bangkok even with the situation right now, but if James Speed or members of that team were to contact the USASF for an investigation and people found out can you imagine how many people would complain about it??? People would be hating on Gym Tyme then for taking something away from their "crowd" favorite. It has gotten to the point with people wanting the International teams to win that the lack of respect for some of these US teams is shocking. Look at the worlds medal count thread and the post about not counting their wins and the amount of shimmies it got, if that got that much support can you imagine the hate they would get for doing something to benefit them in this situation.
I don't think US teams are going to turn in Bangkok because they don't want the hate to go in their direction. Heck if I were a coach I wouldn't want it either and that is sad because it is the right thing to do.
If the USASF doesn't want to speak on the matter they could at least release the scores and breakdowns. Sure it will tick more people off from what they see, I can almost bet the breakdowns don't make sense, but hey it is some sort of answer to whether they got deductions or not.

I am sorry if I have talked in circles in this thread, but the situation really bugs me and makes me want to stand up for what is right and get answers. Sure if they don't want to change the outcome don't do it, but come on just suck up the pride and admit there were mistakes.

 

[GDaddyLS]

The USASF doesn't have to give answers to anyone, but if they don't more and more people are going to think they are nothing but a joke. Sorry if that sounds harsh in any way but it is how I truly feel.
I know that a member of Gym Tyme's team posted about how happy the team was when Bangkok won and that they basically weren't anti-Bangkok even with the situation right now, but if James Speed or members of that team were to contact the USASF for an investigation and people found out can you imagine how many people would complain about it??? People would be hating on Gym Tyme then for taking something away from their "crowd" favorite. It has gotten to the point with people wanting the International teams to win that the lack of respect for some of these US teams is shocking. Look at the worlds medal count thread and the post about not counting their wins and the amount of shimmies it got, if that got that much support can you imagine the hate they would get for doing something to benefit them in this situation.
I don't think US teams are going to turn in Bangkok because they don't want the hate to go in their direction. Heck if I were a coach I wouldn't want it either and that is sad because it is the right thing to do.
If the USASF doesn't want to speak on the matter they could at least release the scores and breakdowns. Sure it will tick more people off from what they see, I can almost bet the breakdowns don't make sense, but hey it is some sort of answer to whether they got deductions or not.

I am sorry if I have talked in circles in this thread, but the situation really bugs me and makes me want to stand up for what is right and get answers. Sure if they don't want to change the outcome don't do it, but come on just suck up the pride and admit there were mistakes.

I'm in no way trying to create an "aww shucks" moment here but we knew Bangkok had too many boys on the floor before the USASF people came to us and tried explained what was going on... James and I agreed to not say anything simply b/c it was clear who the crowd favorite (by a LARGE margin) was and the two of us were amazed at what they did do with their pyramids whether they were illegal or not... To your point, had we tried to cause a ruckus we would have been booed out of the fieldhouse especially if Bangkok had NOT been announced in 1st place also. We don't blame the kids that were on the floor from Bangkok b/c we could obviously see from their performance how hard they worked to do what they did. Having said that (at the risk of sounding arrogant, I hope this doesn't get misunderstood that way) we did feel we were the best overall team in the division and we did end up coming home with a 1st place gold medal and globe... So we do feel we got what we deserved and we also feel everything else will ultimately take care of itself.

 

[ztaprincess]

I'm in no way trying to create an "aww shucks" moment here but we knew Bangkok had too many boys on the floor before the USASF people came to us and tried explained what was going on... James and I agreed to not say anything simply b/c it was clear who the crowd favorite (by a LARGE margin) was and the two of us were amazed at what they did do with their pyramids whether they were illegal or not... To your point, had we tried to cause a ruckus we would have been booed out of the fieldhouse especially if Bangkok had NOT been announced in 1st place also. We don't blame the kids that were on the floor from Bangkok b/c we could obviously see from their performance how hard they worked to do what they did. Having said that (at the risk of sounding arrogant, I hope this doesn't get misunderstood that way) we did feel we were the best overall team in the division and we did end up coming home with a 1st place gold medal and globe... So we do feel we got what we deserved and we also feel everything else will ultimately take care of itself.

Exactly. From what I have read on here, facebook, and twitter it seems like the athletes were a-okay with Bangkok being recognized for what they can do. It is great to see such great sportsmanship even while knowing what was going on.

The bolded part was the main point of my post earlier. It makes me sad how true the statement is. Look at the arguments over the Panthers and Cali thing because the fan favorite of many didn't walk away with a win. I could only imagine the uproar that could be caused by a US team turning in Bangkok for their illegalities. It would have been the correct thing to do, but Gym Tyme didn't feel it was necessary (which is a classy move) and I give them props for that because I don't think some other gyms would have done that.

I hope that these things get worked out and in the future it doesn't happen again, but I guess we have to wait until next worlds to find that out.

 

[5-6-7-8]

With something this obvious, I feel no one should have to turn another team in.

 

[coachrah]

I'm in no way trying to create an "aww shucks" moment here but we knew Bangkok had too many boys on the floor before the USASF people came to us and tried explained what was going on... James and I agreed to not say anything simply b/c it was clear who the crowd favorite (by a LARGE margin) was and the two of us were amazed at what they did do with their pyramids whether they were illegal or not... To your point, had we tried to cause a ruckus we would have been booed out of the fieldhouse especially if Bangkok had NOT been announced in 1st place also. We don't blame the kids that were on the floor from Bangkok b/c we could obviously see from their performance how hard they worked to do what they did. Having said that (at the risk of sounding arrogant, I hope this doesn't get misunderstood that way) we did feel we were the best overall team in the division and we did end up coming home with a 1st place gold medal and globe... So we do feel we got what we deserved and we also feel everything else will ultimately take care of itself.

I think it speaks volumes in a USA dominant audience that Bangkok was the crowd favorite. Americans love underdogs and Cinderella stories in sports. I am sure nothing can take away from the feeling that Bangkok had as they were embraced by an audience as they performed. However, Bangkok and your team were not the ONLY two teams in this division. Had it been ONLY two teams and you were willing to concede to knowing illegal pyramids and too many team players were on the mat, it would have been a different thread started here. This is about the integrity of the sport and many more teams (beside your own) hoping to play by the rules and win by the rules. It would be great to know if the USASF people went to all the competing teams in this division and explained whatever was explained to you so that they too could make concessions or at least make sense of it. I am not convinced a ruckus would have ensued if anyone questioned an uneven playing field and illegalities. Noone disputes that your team got what they deserved or how happy we are for your athletes, but rather, the dismay that not ALL teams had a fighting chance.