All-Star Transparency In Scoring And Allstar Cheerleading

[shep]

I know that this discussion has been had here but I feel as though it was mostly unresolved. It is a subject that I believe strongly in, that said I can be proved wrong and am willing to accept when I have been. I feel so strongly I am possibly choosing this topic for what is essentially my thesis. I am in a business program and I am covering organizational change. I have to cover all angles of the subject from the change itself, to the effects on the allstar world and all the way to the effects of gyms of all sizes. I thought that there were no better place to discuss this topic than here.

I would like to keep this thread civil, focused and discussing the issues involved (both positive and negative) for the idea of complete transparency in scoring.

Transparency as envisioned by me: I would like the USASF to require all events recognized by the USASF to have total transparency in scoring. Every coach/athlete should be entitled to see not only every squad's overall scores but each squad's complete score sheet.

Why this is beneficial: Allowing everyone to see the score sheets of everyone else will allow a completely level playing field. It is often hard for a coach to understand why (when they believed that they had maxed their score) they scored lower than their opponents. If a coach could compare scores and review video they would be able to level the playing field. In football every team know's that you get 6 points if you score a touchdown, the same can't be said for cheer. Another benefit is the elimination of prejudiced judging. This is a hot button, but I feel that it happens, it may not be intentional, but I believe it happens. transparent score sheets eliminate not only bad judges but it eliminates coaches, athletes and parent's saying that they were screwed. And this happens because of an increase in understanding. Large and small gyms alike will have a level playing field, large gyms who have been in business who are perceived to have either have a secret deeper understanding of score sheet's and scoring rubrics that newly established gyms seem to struggle so long to attain, or they have an unfair advantage by way of industry relationships. Transparency eliminates these issues by essentially letting everyone know how many points a "touchdown" is actually worth (the word touchdown is used purely as an example).

Why this is potentially harmful: 1. someone may steal parts of your routine, once aspects are proven to be more valuable. 2. Coaches are afraid to face criticism from parents due to inadequacies. I'm sure there are many more I've just never been against it! ha! I need help here.

I believe that the same way transparency and universal scoring in gymnastics has helped to propel it forward, it could do the same for cheer. I'm not asking for universal scoring, not yet anyway. But if all USASF events could be counted on to be transparent, EP's scoring would still be consistent within their company and scoring would essentially be universal inside that company.

I would love to hear what everyone thinks about transparency (NOT BIG GYM VS. LITTLE GYM) both good and bad.

I'm also including a poll, read carefully!

 

[MissBee]

Can you add another voting option for judges? I feel like voting as "I'm not an athlete, coach or parent" isn't quite accurate.

 

[DJ]

I don't think that we need to see other teams "comments" on the score sheet.
But I think that we should be able to see the score for each category and execution, similar to Figure Skating and many other sports.

 

[BlueCat]

Competitions are beginning to release the combined scores for stunts, jumps, etc. This is certainly better than nothing. However, I REALLY wish we could see the difficulty and execution elements of the scores as well. That would give us a much better context for our own scores.

 

[cupieqt]

I agree with meanj
Comments should be private because they are for the benefit of those kids/teams. I plan to compare scoresheets from a recent competition with a competitor from our division. They won and we placed third but it was so close between the top 3 that .001 and .05 separated the scores. The coaches from the first place team and I are both curious about what determined the winner bc it was THAT dang close. None of us could eyeball the routines to pick the winner.

 

[tumbleyoda]

I believe that light is the best antiseptic, therefore transparency will go a long way in leveling the field. It will make it easier for all to understand the outcomes of events. Coaches can see when not adding "janky" skills actually hurt or helps their score when compared to other teams that added "janky" skills. However I still believe that it will take more than transparency to completely level the playing field.

 

[BlueCat]

I believe that light is the best antiseptic, therefore transparency will go a long way in leveling the field. It will make it easier for all to understand the outcomes of events. Coaches can see when not adding "janky" skills actually hurt or helps their score when compared to other teams that added "janky" skills. However I still believe that it will take more than transparency to completely level the playing field.

Out of curiosity, how do you think that the playing field is current not level? I'm saying you are necessarily wrong, just curious how you mean that.

 

[MissBee]

Another thing that will help is adding a Code of Point (like in gymnastics). The COP tells exactly how a skill is to be executed perfectly, and then what the deductions are for not meeting that standard. For example: a split leap should be at 180 degrees to get full credit. If the legs are at 160, its a certain deduction and if they are at 120 it's a larger deduction. In gymnastics it's set up so that the lowest levels (level 4 and 5) only have to meet 90 degrees in their split leap.

Gymnastics also has compulsory routines for up to level 7. I don't think this is feasable for cheer (although having required elements and combinations I think would be good). However, one of the things that comes with the compulsory routines is the demo video. The video is an elite gymnast performing the routines. This shows what the skill looks like when done with correct form, amplitude and altitude. This would be a huge benefit to have a standard of what each skill should look like. Coaches and athletes can watch these and compare their current performance of a skill to that "gold standard".

I would love for USASF to hire me full time to do this. I would GLADLY take on the project of collaborating with coaches around the country to develop a code of points and standards that can be applied to routine construction and skills instruction.

 

[shep]

Another thing that will help is adding a Code of Point (like in gymnastics). The COP tells exactly how a skill is to be executed perfectly, and then what the deductions are for not meeting that standard. For example: a split leap should be at 180 degrees to get full credit. If the legs are at 160, its a certain deduction and if they are at 120 it's a larger deduction. In gymnastics it's set up so that the lowest levels (level 4 and 5) only have to meet 90 degrees in their split leap.

Gymnastics also has compulsory routines for up to level 7. I don't think this is feasable for cheer (although having required elements and combinations I think would be good). However, one of the things that comes with the compulsory routines is the demo video. The video is an elite gymnast performing the routines. This shows what the skill looks like when done with correct form, amplitude and altitude. This would be a huge benefit to have a standard of what each skill should look like. Coaches and athletes can watch these and compare their current performance of a skill to that "gold standard".

This x 1,000,000. Eventually thats the way I want cheer to go! That's ideal. I'm just asking to be able to see other's scores. I can't add options to the poll now, or if I can I cant figure out how...

I have to work now so I can't respond to everyone, really hoping to get someone in here that opposes the idea. I know that there's at least 1 person who does! Haha

 

[tumbleyoda]

BlueCat - I believe that in cheer as well as life, you can never completely level the field. Even if that is your best intention. I do not suggest any conspiracy here. Some programs have worked very hard to get where they are. A solid routine that scores well to me is the result of way more than what a rubric tells you that you need to have to score within a certain range or a score sheet that tells you that you successfully did. What happens in between, the ability to coax those outcomes so to speak, to get athletes, parents, and coaches to accept their placements on teams and work towards a larger vision are things that will never be completely level yet have a direct bearing on the competition floor. It is more programatic than within the USASF. To the programs trying to grow there will always be a perceived unleveling so to speak. More transparency helps that perception fade IMO.

Now where I "wonder deeply" if it will make a difference is to use a generic example is if your squad throws what is called here on the FB a janky skill or an under-rotated full (I know they don't but humor me ) and my squad does the same at the same competition with the same judges - does my squad get hit harder for it and yours get a pass? Where it is perceived that your squad knows how to do the skill correctly because of the rightfully built up reputation that you have well earned over the years while my squad is treated and judged by a different standard? This may be the human element I am referring to here but I wonder if this can ever be eliminated as well. My belief is it should make no difference whatsoever. My experience (not with your program but with others who have a similar level of respect thru out the industry) says that whether it was "missed, hidden, or didn't matter to the final outcome of the score" says otherwise.

Beyond transparency and a unified score sheet for Worlds division only, the next leveling option is the two division concept that has been kicked around for a few years on these boards. IMO that is about as level as we can make it. All the rest lays in the hands of each gym.

 

[ferociouslyfierce]

I think it'd be a good idea mainly because a lot of judges have automatic critiques they write down and sometimes don't even pertain to the team that just went. If anything to keep judges on their feet.

 

[MomOf2ThatsMe]

BlueCat -
Beyond transparency and a unified score sheet for Worlds division only, the next leveling option is the two division concept that has been kicked around for a few years on these boards. IMO that is about as level as we can make it. All the rest lays in the hands of each gym.

???

 

[tumbleyoda]

Another thing that will help is adding a Code of Point (like in gymnastics). The COP tells exactly how a skill is to be executed perfectly, and then what the deductions are for not meeting that standard. For example: a split leap should be at 180 degrees to get full credit. If the legs are at 160, its a certain deduction and if they are at 120 it's a larger deduction. In gymnastics it's set up so that the lowest levels (level 4 and 5) only have to meet 90 degrees in their split leap.

Gymnastics also has compulsory routines for up to level 7. I don't think this is feasable for cheer (although having required elements and combinations I think would be good). However, one of the things that comes with the compulsory routines is the demo video. The video is an elite gymnast performing the routines. This shows what the skill looks like when done with correct form, amplitude and altitude. This would be a huge benefit to have a standard of what each skill should look like. Coaches and athletes can watch these and compare their current performance of a skill to that "gold standard".

I would love for USASF to hire me full time to do this. I would GLADLY take on the project of collaborating with coaches around the country to develop a code of points and standards that can be applied to routine construction and skills instruction.

I think we to some degree have the compulsory elements and combinations. USASF tells you what can be done at each level. Most rubrics tell you exactly what you need for that particular company. The issue to me is that they are not deducted the same at every competition by every panel and by every company. This is where I wish we had a separate judging body that trained and supplied judges for all USASF sanctioned events.

The videos are great - loved them in gymnastics. Would of loved to have something like that when I started in cheer.

 

[tumbleyoda]

???

IIRC BlueCat brought this up a week or so ago about having two divisions. In his example it was a Worlds division and a Nationals division. That gyms would be able to choose at the beginning of the year which division they wanted to compete in for the year. It would allow gyms to choose their division based on their individual program needs and goals. This same concept has been spoken of on the boards as a D1 and D2 concept. I copied his post here:

Under the current system, I don't think that teams should have a choice if teams are split into large/small gym divisions.

That being said, I would implement a different system for splitting gyms. I would have two classifications that are self-selected by the gym at the beginning of each season. (need better names, but I'll use "World League" and "National League" for demonstration purposes.)

World League (the "upper" level) gyms are eligible for Worlds bids. "National League" gyms are not. The idea would be that most large gyms would pick World League for themselves. Most small gyms would not (but would have the option to if they chose.) Default would be National. (You are defined as "national" unless you declare with USASF by a certain date.)

If the EPs chose, they may split divisions into "World" and "National" if and only if there are 7 or more teams total AND the resulting split would leave at least 2 teams in each division.

Gyms would NOT be able to change "leagues" mid-season. All of a program's teams compete in the same league.

PROS:
gyms get to pick their own league/classification each year.
strong small gyms (or weak large gyms) can choose to compete against similarly competitive teams
forced declaration by a certain date helps ensure that Worlds gyms are registered with USASF
No need to define (or attempt to verify) enrollment/size
Fairly simple for EPs to administer.

CONS:
Unorganized gyms could find themselves ineligible for Worlds
We need different names for the "leagues" or divisions.

This is nothing that is officially in the works as far as I know. Just ideas we were throwing around.

 

[BlueCat]

BlueCat - I believe that in cheer as well as life, you can never completely level the field. Even if that is your best intention. I do not suggest any conspiracy here. Some programs have worked very hard to get where they are. A solid routine that scores well to me is the result of way more than what a rubric tells you that you need to have to score within a certain range or a score sheet that tells you that you successfully did. What happens in between, the ability to coax those outcomes so to speak, to get athletes, parents, and coaches to accept their placements on teams and work towards a larger vision are things that will never be completely level yet have a direct bearing on the competition floor. It is more programatic than within the USASF. To the programs trying to grow there will always be a perceived unleveling so to speak. More transparency helps that perception fade IMO.

Now where I "wonder deeply" if it will make a difference is to use a generic example is if your squad throws what is called here on the FB a janky skill or an under-rotated full (I know they don't but humor me ) and my squad does the same at the same competition with the same judges - does my squad get hit harder for it and yours get a pass? Where it is perceived that your squad knows how to do the skill correctly because of the rightfully built up reputation that you have well earned over the years while my squad is treated and judged by a different standard? This may be the human element I am referring to here but I wonder if this can ever be eliminated as well. My belief is it should make no difference whatsoever. My experience (not with your program but with others who have a similar level of respect thru out the industry) says that whether it was "missed, hidden, or didn't matter to the final outcome of the score" says otherwise.

Beyond transparency and a unified score sheet for Worlds division only, the next leveling option is the two division concept that has been kicked around for a few years on these boards. IMO that is about as level as we can make it. All the rest lays in the hands of each gym.

The funny thing is that most large gyms think they are judged more harshly because of the expectations that they judges may have. I guess everything depends on your perspective.