All-Star Usasf Age Grid To Be Released Soon!

[StarshipTrooper]

Except you choose to have a Senior 3 team instead of a Senior 1 or 2. Our Pre-Team program this year is 160 kids with no one above level 2 (the rest are level 1). 5% of those kids MAYBE had heard of Stingrays before (because of siblings in our program). Everyone else we put out flyers, recruited, and sold the kids on a program not because of national championships (this sport is hard enough to explain to the layperson) but because of just saying what we do for the half year team and made it fun. Any gym can be competitive in a level, it is just they choose to to usually go up so they don't loose the kids that have tucks. You don't need 20 to be competitive small, you need 12-15. If cartwheel girl is #16, she shouldnt be on a senior 3 (unless she is an amazing base). If cartwheel girl is critical girl number 12, probably should go level 2.

I think yall have a very strong business plan. Props to your owners and staff. It takes hard work.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

It's two issues. My argument against youth 5 has always been from a medical standpoint, kids this young (9 and under) are not physically built to withstand the pounding of some of the more elite tumbling skills. Growth plates can be fractured, ligaments can be strained, and when you have a 16 year old that has been level 5 most of her cheer career needing ACL surgery...that's not normal. I've met a 21 year old that has been told she may need a double knee replacement and was told she has the knees of a 60 year old. Is that really where we want our kids to be?
I have also been a part of this horse and pony show for long enough to know that cheer parents like winning. They also like their kids to be on the highest level possible, sometimes even if their child doesn't have the skills to be there. The handful of kids that are young and do double will get put on a level 5 team unless we ban all level 5 divisions under Senior (which I'm not suggesting). There are a handful of very talented kids in this country that can benefit from a level 5 team, just like there is a handful of talented gymnasts that benefit from TOPS and up training. On the other hand there is a larger percentage of kids that are being hurried through the progressions because they are quick learners and placed on these Youth 5 teams. Having a Y5R gives the kids that need time to progress slower a place to compete. But like I said I am a realist and know that some parents out there would freak the freak out if they were told their child who has been on a Y5 for a year or more will now be restricted on their tumbling. You can't win every battle but you can make changes to protect as many kid's physical health as possible.
Also I didn't accuse anyone of "sandbagging" what I said was that I was worried that this could be the outcome of having two divisions since Senior Open has had the same complaint since it was introduced. And honestly can anyone on this board say that some gym out there would not do this?

Look, I'm not certain about the give and take on this thread, and I do think you have a whole lot of good opinions. But being intimately involved in injuries, I have just not seen the things you are talking about happen in the CEA program. I cannot vouch for others, but suspect it is about the same. Youth aged kids get injuries, but I just don't see the cartilage and ligament injuries in those kids. As you say, gymnastics may give us more clues as they tend to do a lot more cumulative skills over the years of training. I suspect if these kids were wearing their joints out due to the early start, we would have heard about it from the gymnastics programs long ago. I have not seen that in cheer. But backs are a different subject. That said, the pubertal girls especially are the ones that commonly get cartilage and ligament injuries, and I DO agree that their injuries are mostly technique related and I think due to the intermittant nature of cheer practice and lack of committment to daily training and flexibility. And again, just commenting on the injury side, not the rest of our points. Yall are too deep into the other subjects to jump in.

 

[newcheerdad]

There will always be exceptions, but I think the rule - by and large - is that the larger program you have, the larger a base of athletes from which you have to create teams that can be competitive at their given level. This is true in pretty much every sport.

The question, for me, is whether there should be some segregation between the mega-programs and the smaller mom-and-pop shops. Add in, as Kingston mentioned, that the big programs have half-year teams, and then what do you do? So maybe segregation by program isn't the way to go - maybe it's by team.

And then, ACEDAD, I would be fine with your division I/division II idea, as long as you could break it down by team. The idea would be that your half-year level 1 mini program competes in "Division II", but your full-year all-star mini 2 team competes in "Division I". Because there are lots of programs out there that have either half-year teams or "recreational" teams with lighter practice requirements that would be appropriate for D-II.

 

[King]

You could do that, buy make it so all D2 are one day comps. All D1 are 2 day. Athletes cannot compete in both divisions.

 

[newcheerdad]

You could do that, buy make it so all D2 are one day comps. All D1 are 2 day. Athletes cannot compete in both divisions.

I think it's a given that you couldn't cross over from a D1 to a D2 team. As to the 1-day vs. 2-day idea, I don't think that's a big deal either way, but what you could do is have D2-specific comps. I even remember reading something on the USASF website about this concept, although they were breaking it out as rec vs. all-star.

One other thing: I'd also consider a max on the level for a D2 team. ACEDAD suggested no world's divisions, I'd go further and say no level 5 teams, period. If you want to compete at level 5, you have compete in D1 with the best teams.

 

[King]

I think it's a given that you couldn't cross over from a D1 to a D2 team. As to the 1-day vs. 2-day idea, I don't think that's a big deal either way, but what you could do is have D2-specific comps. I even remember reading something on the USASF website about this concept, although they were breaking it out as rec vs. all-star.

One other thing: I'd also consider a max on the level for a D2 team. ACEDAD suggested no world's divisions, I'd go further and say no level 5 teams, period. If you want to compete at level 5, you have compete in D1 with the best teams.

I'd say nothing abovr level 3.

 

[createmagic]

Except you choose to have a Senior 3 team instead of a Senior 1 or 2. Our Pre-Team program this year is 160 kids with no one above level 2 (the rest are level 1). 5% of those kids MAYBE had heard of Stingrays before (because of siblings in our program). Everyone else we put out flyers, recruited, and sold the kids on a program not because of national championships (this sport is hard enough to explain to the layperson) but because of just saying what we do for the half year team and made it fun. Any gym can be competitive in a level, it is just they choose to to usually go up so they don't loose the kids that have tucks. You don't need 20 to be competitive small, you need 12-15. If cartwheel girl is #16, she shouldnt be on a senior 3 (unless she is an amazing base). If cartwheel girl is critical girl number 12, probably should go level 2.

Ok, love the pre-team program idea. That's solid. I would love to see a pre-team program in every gym!

In the Senior 3 scenario though--if you go Senior 2, you lose your higher-skilled kids to big gym down the road. Not helpful in building your program and retaining the young talent.

 

[newcheerdad]

Ok, love the pre-team program idea. That's solid. I would love to see a pre-team program in every gym!

In the Senior 3 scenario though--if you go Senior 2, you lose your higher-skilled kids to big gym down the road. Not helpful in building your program and retaining the young talent.

And when that athlete gets their layout or full, what do you do then? I'm not sure that the answer is to level up for the sake of the handful of kids that have higher level skills, because ultimately your team is going to struggle to be competitive at that higher level. You'll probably end up losing those high-performing kids anyway.

 

[newcheerdad]

Holy double posting, Batman!

 

[King]

Ok, love the pre-team program idea. That's solid. I would love to see a pre-team program in every gym!

In the Senior 3 scenario though--if you go Senior 2, you lose your higher-skilled kids to big gym down the road. Not helpful in building your program and retaining the young talent.

All depends. If your gym only offers up to senior 3, and you have a kid you taught a double full, is it worth it to make a team JUST for that kid? You can spend more time keeping kids in your higher levels than recruiting new kids to do level 1 and 2 cheer.

If this is about being profitable, lower level cheerleading always makes more than higher level.

If this is about being competitive, then only build a team that is solid with the skills they are at, EVEN if it means some higher level compete down.

If this is about pride and showing off what that one kid at your gym got, then go for it. But youll probably end up losing those kids to the gym down the street anyway if you have to take barely do a cartwheel girl on your senior 3.

 

[CGAcheer]

All depends. If your gym only offers up to senior 3, and you have a kid you taught a double full, is it worth it to make a team JUST for that kid? You can spend more time keeping kids in your higher levels than recruiting new kids to do level 1 and 2 cheer.

If this is about being profitable, lower level cheerleading always makes more than higher level.

If this is about being competitive, then only build a team that is solid with the skills they are at, EVEN if it means some higher level compete down.

If this is about pride and showing off what that one kid at your gym got, then go for it. But youll probably end up losing those kids to the gym down the street anyway if you have to take barely do a cartwheel girl on your senior 3.

I would consider us to be a quite successful up and coming gym. We have 3 teams, a Sr 3, Jr 2 and a Youth 1. None of our teams have full squad skills but they do have 75% or better with at level skills including generally about 25% who have above level skills.
With the exception of one bad, lots of stunt problems, performance, we've come in 1st or a close 2nd place with all 3 teams at every comp so far this year.

The situation we are facing for next season is a girl who is turning 15, who is a solid level 2 with the exception of being scared to throw back handsprings. Every other 15+ girl has at least toe touch standing 3 bhs, and at least a round off tuck. (hopefully, we recruit some older beginners to make this situation easier) But do we put her on a Sr 3, or do we make what would be a jr 2 or a jr 1 go Sr just for her? We have similar situations for 12 year olds but at least there are a few of them. Then if the Jr 2 goes Sr 2, do we leave our 4 or 5 10 year olds with level 3+ skills on a level 1 team or bump them up to the Sr 3 team and have peanuts on a Sr team.

The bigger gyms that are any where close to us, aren't at the level like a stingrays or something that would be worth driving the hour + to get to from here plus we beat them at competitions, so there is no real worry of losing kids to the gym down the street. But I do want to be profitable and stay competitive with all of our teams as we move on to bigger competitions.

 

[King]

I would consider us to be a quite successful up and coming gym. We have 3 teams, a Sr 3, Jr 2 and a Youth 1. None of our teams have full squad skills but they do have 75% or better with at level skills including generally about 25% who have above level skills.
With the exception of one bad, lots of stunt problems, performance, we've come in 1st or a close 2nd place with all 3 teams at every comp so far this year.

The situation we are facing for next season is a girl who is turning 15, who is a solid level 2 with the exception of being scared to throw back handsprings. Every other 15+ girl has at least toe touch standing 3 bhs, and at least a round off tuck. (hopefully, we recruit some older beginners to make this situation easier) But do we put her on a Sr 3, or do we make what would be a jr 2 or a jr 1 go Sr just for her? We have similar situations for 12 year olds but at least there are a few of them. Then if the Jr 2 goes Sr 2, do we leave our 4 or 5 10 year olds with level 3+ skills on a level 1 team or bump them up to the Sr 3 team and have peanuts on a Sr team.

The bigger gyms that are any where close to us, aren't at the level like a stingrays or something that would be worth driving the hour + to get to from here plus we beat them at competitions, so there is no real worry of losing kids to the gym down the street. But I do want to be profitable and stay competitive with all of our teams as we move on to bigger competitions.

Then we make a business decision. Is this kid a solid payer? (has never missed a payment ever?) Do the other girls like her. Maybe she doesn't have level 3 tumbling, but can she stunt/motion/dance/ basket level 3? If the answer to all that is no, then you may not have a team for her (and she can be an alternate). If the other girls like her and she can contribute in those pieces, one out of 20 girls without the tumbling but holds her own in the other areas is not hurting the team. And then you look at the personal level. If this kid comes to all her tumbling classes and is just suffering a mental block, but the other girls know you have a hard worker they will accept she is busting her butt as much as the other girls. But, one thing I have learned through open (because it is magnified with soo few practices) whatever you let one person slip with sets the precedent for others to slip. And last, do you have all the high school cheerleaders from the area? Just because a kid didn't come to tryouts doesn't mean she doesn't want to do allstar. Have you recruited all the possible high schoolers for all the high schools you know or help?

 

[yojaehs]

Ok as far as the Y5 Restricted, I feel like it would have been smarter to leave Y5 and J5 and make a J5 Restricted, just seems smarter to me. I'm sure there will be Y5 die hards that will bash that idea but it just seems smarter IMO.

 

[CGAcheer]

I'd say nothing abovr level 3.

You can already pretty much classify yourself as a d1 or d2 program by the events you attend.
There are enough smaller competitions that you can attend where a gym with 4 or 5 teams is huge. If you don't want to compete against the big name teams, you can stick with smaller competitions. If you want to see how you stand against the big dogs, then go to a bigger competition or a two day competition.

Using that as a criteria, we were d2 our first two years, d1.5 this year and will be a d1 program next year

 

[CGAcheer]

Then we make a business decision. Is this kid a solid payer? (has never missed a payment ever?) Do the other girls like her. Maybe she doesn't have level 3 tumbling, but can she stunt/motion/dance/ basket level 3? If the answer to all that is no, then you may not have a team for her (and she can be an alternate). If the other girls like her and she can contribute in those pieces, one out of 20 girls without the tumbling but holds her own in the other areas is not hurting the team. And then you look at the personal level. If this kid comes to all her tumbling classes and is just suffering a mental block, but the other girls know you have a hard worker they will accept she is busting her butt as much as the other girls. But, one thing I have learned through open (because it is magnified with soo few practices) whatever you let one person slip with sets the precedent for others to slip. And last, do you have all the high school cheerleaders from the area? Just because a kid didn't come to tryouts doesn't mean she doesn't want to do allstar. Have you recruited all the possible high schoolers for all the high schools you know or help?

Solid payers and helpful at the gym, the mom pitches in and helps clean. She's a solid 2 except for the tumbling, she was with the majority of that team last year when they were a sr 2, then this year she as on the jr 2.

We actually go to the highschool and middle school tryouts, pass out flyers and talk about our program. Tryouts for us are the 2nd week of May, so we still have some time to bring in more older girls.