All-Star Usasf Age Grid To Be Released Soon!

[cheermommaRN]

Ok. Wait. First you're concerned about kids that can throw doubles crossing from Y5 to Y5R and accusing them of "sandbagging." Then you say that if there is no Y5, the kids would be on J5 (where I'm assuming the could throw doubles). Then you say that your aversion has always been their little knees.

So is the problem really their knees? In which case we shouldn't even let them compete on J5.

Or is the problem "sandbagging" where kids that can throw doubles are competing in Y5R?

And if we don't let them compete on J5 in order to protect their knees and we don't allow Y5 in order to protect their knees, then they are left with Y5R where we all point and call them cheaters for "sandbagging."

It's two issues. My argument against youth 5 has always been from a medical standpoint, kids this young (9 and under) are not physically built to withstand the pounding of some of the more elite tumbling skills. Growth plates can be fractured, ligaments can be strained, and when you have a 16 year old that has been level 5 most of her cheer career needing ACL surgery...that's not normal. I've met a 21 year old that has been told she may need a double knee replacement and was told she has the knees of a 60 year old. Is that really where we want our kids to be?
I have also been a part of this horse and pony show for long enough to know that cheer parents like winning. They also like their kids to be on the highest level possible, sometimes even if their child doesn't have the skills to be there. The handful of kids that are young and do double will get put on a level 5 team unless we ban all level 5 divisions under Senior (which I'm not suggesting). There are a handful of very talented kids in this country that can benefit from a level 5 team, just like there is a handful of talented gymnasts that benefit from TOPS and up training. On the other hand there is a larger percentage of kids that are being hurried through the progressions because they are quick learners and placed on these Youth 5 teams. Having a Y5R gives the kids that need time to progress slower a place to compete. But like I said I am a realist and know that some parents out there would freak the freak out if they were told their child who has been on a Y5 for a year or more will now be restricted on their tumbling. You can't win every battle but you can make changes to protect as many kid's physical health as possible.
Also I didn't accuse anyone of "sandbagging" what I said was that I was worried that this could be the outcome of having two divisions since Senior Open has had the same complaint since it was introduced. And honestly can anyone on this board say that some gym out there would not do this?

 

[ashscott41]

Can someone explain the purpose of a forward or backward roll after a full in the Sr. Restricted division? To me this is the DUMBEST thing written on the 15 pages.

The only thing I can think of is just in case someone busts and falls forward or over rotates and rolls backward. This way it's clearly in the books that it will not be considered a skill after a full, so there is no debate on legalities/deductions

 

[socratesofcheer]

Further to that point - I draw the parallel to the NCAA. The NCAA groups universities by whether they're Division I, II or III. You can't just say "I want our athletic program to go Division I" and then it magically happens. There's a set of criteria that you have to meet (amount of aid given, number of athletic scholarships, number of sports offered, etc.) in order to be eligible.

I think that's the concept, in theory, behind small gym/large gym - the idea that a small gym by definition doesn't have the resources to compete with programs 2, 3 or more times their size.

In theory yes, In reality NO. I can go into a long dissertation about how the small gyms have an advantage but here is the abridged version. Example sm sr level 3

Big Gym 15 teams -- the Senior level 3 team is comprised of athletes #77 - 97 ( assuming there are 2 small and 1 large level 4&5 prior to picking the sr 3 team)
Small Gym 4 teams -- Senior level 3 team is comprised of athletes #1-20 (assuming this is the highest team at the gym)

Small Gym has an advantage.

 

[ACEDAD]

Further to that point - I draw the parallel to the NCAA. The NCAA groups universities by whether they're Division I, II or III. You can't just say "I want our athletic program to go Division I" and then it magically happens. There's a set of criteria that you have to meet (amount of aid given, number of athletic scholarships, number of sports offered, etc.) in order to be eligible.

I think that's the concept, in theory, behind small gym/large gym - the idea that a small gym by definition doesn't have the resources to compete with programs 2, 3 or more times their size.

The reason I don't like the small gym/large gym divide is because it's based on silly criteria. For example, when Jamie reopened Georgia a few years ago. If this "choice" were in place, he would definitely choose Division I and would compete right away.

Another gym down the road might not ever be in a position or have the desire to compete in Division I no matter how many people cheer at the gym.

And while schools have to meet criteria at the NCAA level, it is definitely a choice. And there are some very small schools that choose to allocate the resources to compete at a certain level.

As to "sandbagging", if a gym chooses to compete in Division I, then there should be a rule that they can never, ever under any circumstances use that word.

I'm so tired of it, I could scream.

It's almost always related to tumbling and that is only a part of the scoresheet. Jumps, stunts, pyramids, transitions, etc. all can be exploited to improve scores.

 

[newcheerdad]

The reason I don't like the small gym/large gym divide is because it's based on silly criteria. For example, when Jamie reopened Georgia a few years ago. If this "choice" were in place, he would definitely choose Division I and would compete right away.

Another gym down the road might not ever be in a position or have the desire to compete in Division I no matter how many people cheer at the gym.

And while schools have to meet criteria at the NCAA level, it is definitely a choice. And there are some very small schools that choose to allocate the resources to compete at a certain level.

As to "sandbagging", if a gym chooses to compete in Division I, then there should be a rule that they can never, ever under any circumstances use that word.

I'm so tired of it, I could scream.

It's almost always related to tumbling and that is only a part of the scoresheet. Jumps, stunts, pyramids, transitions, etc. all can be exploited to improve scores.

There are schools that could compete in NCAA Division I, but will choose not to. There shouldn't be a rule that says that you HAVE to compete in Division I if your gym is of a certain size. If I gave the impression I would want that, I misspoke.

But my belief is that if you're going to have divisions, there has to be minimum criteria for competing at the highest level, and it shouldn't just be open to anyone who wants to. Otherwise I can't imagine very many teams opting to compete at the lower level.

I'm not familiar with Georgia, but if they reopened and fielded a World's-eligible team, that could make them automatically eligible to compete in Division I. (in fact, it would require them to do so) Or a gym that fielded a specific number of all-star teams would automatically qualify for Division I, but could choose to compete in Division II if they chose. Or you could find some other criteria to let teams compete at the level.

The idea should be that competing at the highest level requires something more than just saying "I want to". Otherwise I don't see the benefit of having the divisions in the first place.

As to "sandbagging", I'm as guilty of anyone when it comes to using the term. But the reality is that today, there is nothing - not a single thing - that prevents teams from crossing over en masse to lower levels for the sake of winning a competition. Youth sports should be, when at all possible, about athletes of relatively equal skill levels competing against each other.

 

[cheererinIL]

But my belief is that if you're going to have divisions, there has to be minimum criteria for competing at the highest level, and it shouldn't just be open to anyone who wants to. Otherwise I can't imagine very many teams opting to compete at the lower level.

Isn't it this way now though with the actual level system for teams? Teams still opt to compete Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, & Level 4, even though it's not the most "prestigious" or highest ranking level.. just like some colleges are perfectly content being Division II & III schools.

If I had a small gym comprised of lower level competing athletes, I think it would only benefit to not compete against gyms that are fielding a Worlds level team.

 

[WuToDouble]

Can someone explain the purpose of a forward or backward roll after a full in the Sr. Restricted division? To me this is the DUMBEST thing written on the 15 pages.

Just to tumble out. For example, in lvl 3, u can do a punch front forward roll but can't tumble out of a punch front, so you can punch front, forward roll, step round of hand tuck. In this you can ro arabian forwArd roll step tumble

 

[yojaehs]

Just to tumble out. For example, in lvl 3, u can do a punch front forward roll but can't tumble out of a punch front, so you can punch front, forward roll, step round of hand tuck. In this you can ro arabian forwArd roll step tumble

So now level 3 and 5 skills are connected the same way, seems extremely LAME

 

[CGAcheer]

In theory yes, In reality NO. I can go into a long dissertation about how the small gyms have an advantage but here is the abridged version. Example sm sr level 3

Big Gym 15 teams -- the Senior level 3 team is comprised of athletes #77 - 97 ( assuming there are 2 small and 1 large level 4&5 prior to picking the sr 3 team)
Small Gym 4 teams -- Senior level 3 team is comprised of athletes #1-20 (assuming this is the highest team at the gym)

Small Gym has an advantage.

This works both ways though,
The large gym probably also has a few level 1 and 2 teams, so if you are on the level 3 team you have level 3 skills
With the small gym, if you are 15 and can't do a Cartwheel you're still on the Sr 3 team because there is no other Sr team.

So you end up with-
the large gym team having full squad level 3 skills but maybe not stand out specialty skills.
the small gym team having 50% level 3 skills, 25% Level 4 or 5 skills and 25% level 1 or 2 skills
(this doesn't account for crossover use by either gym)

So neither has a definitive advantage in that sense

 

[CGAcheer]

Just to tumble out. For example, in lvl 3, u can do a punch front forward roll but can't tumble out of a punch front, so you can punch front, forward roll, step round of hand tuck. In this you can ro arabian forwArd roll step tumble

I believe it only applies to full twisting skills, so you can put an arabian in front of any level 4 specialty pass and end it with a full

 

[WuToDouble]

I believe it only applies to full twisting skills, so you can put an arabian in front of any level 4 specialty pass and end it with a full

um no... cuz it says twisting, and even uses it as a demo


No tumbling is allowed after the twisting skill. (Exception: A forward or backward roll is allowed after a twisting skill;
however, no tumbling is allowed after the roll.)Clarification: If any tumbling follows a forward or backward roll or
forward or backward twisting skill, at least one step into the next tumbling skill must be included to separate the two
passes. Stepping out of a twisting skill (i.e. Arabian) or forward roll is considered a continuation of the same
tumbling pass. An athlete must take an additional step out of a twisting skill step out or a forward roll step
out. However, if the athlete finishes the twisting skill or stands the forward roll with both feet together, then
one step is all that is needed to create a new tumbling pass.

 

[socratesofcheer]

No tumbling is allowed after the twisting skill. (Exception: A forward or backward roll is allowed after a twisting skill;
however, no tumbling is allowed after the roll.)Clarification: If any tumbling follows a forward or backward roll or
forward or backward twisting skill, at least one step into the next tumbling skill must be included to separate the two
passes. Stepping out of a twisting skill (i.e. Arabian) or forward roll is considered a continuation of the same
tumbling pass. An athlete must take an additional step out of a twisting skill step out or a forward roll step
out. However, if the athlete finishes the twisting skill or stands the forward roll with both feet together, then
one step is all that is needed to create a new tumbling pass.

Personally, I know I can't wait to watch this as the new amazing last pass:
Round off back handspring full back extension roll step step handspring handspring full

It would have been easier just to stick with "no tumbling is allowed after the twisting skill"

 

[CGAcheer]

um no... cuz it says twisting, and even uses it as a demo


No tumbling is allowed after the twisting skill. (Exception: A forward or backward roll is allowed after a twisting skill;
however, no tumbling is allowed after the roll.)Clarification: If any tumbling follows a forward or backward roll or
forward or backward twisting skill, at least one step into the next tumbling skill must be included to separate the two
passes. Stepping out of a twisting skill (i.e. Arabian) or forward roll is considered a continuation of the same
tumbling pass. An athlete must take an additional step out of a twisting skill step out or a forward roll step
out. However, if the athlete finishes the twisting skill or stands the forward roll with both feet together, then
one step is all that is needed to create a new tumbling pass.

Hopefully they adjust the wording on that so that you can step out of an arabian or half and just can't tumble out of a full twisting skill

 

[createmagic]

This works both ways though,
The large gym probably also has a few level 1 and 2 teams, so if you are on the level 3 team you have level 3 skills
With the small gym, if you are 15 and can't do a Cartwheel you're still on the Sr 3 team because there is no other Sr team.

So you end up with-
the large gym team having full squad level 3 skills but maybe not stand out specialty skills.
the small gym team having 50% level 3 skills, 25% Level 4 or 5 skills and 25% level 1 or 2 skills
(this doesn't account for crossover use by either gym)

So neither has a definitive advantage in that sense

I used to coach for a smaller gym, and this right here was the issue we dealt with a lot. And it affects all ages of teams. If you have one team per age group, then you have to try to work with the uncoordinated-never-tried-cheer-before girl on the same team as the girl with the full and the scorp double-down. And you've always got a handful of kids in either direction, but rarely a full team that has complete solid level skills. And then you end up losing kids to the big program because you don't have good homes on teams for them.

 

[King]

This works both ways though,
The large gym probably also has a few level 1 and 2 teams, so if you are on the level 3 team you have level 3 skills
With the small gym, if you are 15 and can't do a Cartwheel you're still on the Sr 3 team because there is no other Sr team.

So you end up with-
the large gym team having full squad level 3 skills but maybe not stand out specialty skills.
the small gym team having 50% level 3 skills, 25% Level 4 or 5 skills and 25% level 1 or 2 skills
(this doesn't account for crossover use by either gym)

So neither has a definitive advantage in that sense

Except you choose to have a Senior 3 team instead of a Senior 1 or 2. Our Pre-Team program this year is 160 kids with no one above level 2 (the rest are level 1). 5% of those kids MAYBE had heard of Stingrays before (because of siblings in our program). Everyone else we put out flyers, recruited, and sold the kids on a program not because of national championships (this sport is hard enough to explain to the layperson) but because of just saying what we do for the half year team and made it fun. Any gym can be competitive in a level, it is just they choose to to usually go up so they don't loose the kids that have tucks. You don't need 20 to be competitive small, you need 12-15. If cartwheel girl is #16, she shouldnt be on a senior 3 (unless she is an amazing base). If cartwheel girl is critical girl number 12, probably should go level 2.