All-Star What Should Penalty Be For Cheating?

[imrichhowboutu]

Penalty = Beheading
Blame - Both parties, it takes two to tango.

I think in this case, it is a fault of both the gym owner and the athlete, since they were both aware.

When my brother was in little league, my mom used to alter his birthdate on his birth certificate. He was born in september and was never able to play on a team with his friends. This was also 15 years ago and it was never brought up.
So what would stop a mom of a youth level 2 team from altering her daughters age? She would never tell the gym because they wouldnt allow it. And then one day the daughter is on a senior level 5 team.... You can't tell the gym that you faked her birth certificate 7 years ago, so you just let it roll. How can you penalize the gym for something they had no idea about.

 

[socratesofcheer]

I think in this case, it is a fault of both the gym owner and the athlete, since they were both aware.

When my brother was in little league, my mom used to alter his birthdate on his birth certificate. He was born in september and was never able to play on a team with his friends. This was also 15 years ago and it was never brought up.
So what would stop a mom of a youth level 2 team from altering her daughters age? She would never tell the gym because they wouldnt allow it. And then one day the daughter is on a senior level 5 team.... You can't tell the gym that you faked her birth certificate 7 years ago, so you just let it roll. How can you penalize the gym for something they had no idea about.

I guess it would be a situation that if the gym owner found out on their own, they were pro-active in removing the athlete. A self imposed penalty if you will.

This reminds me of a situation a few years back when Cheer Athletics had a "too old" athlete on their coed team. They won a paid bid to worlds at ACA. Someone at the competition went to the owners and said so and so is too old and this is how we know. Cheer Athletics immediately dismissed the athlete and then declined the paid bid that they were awarded.

I think the self imposed sanctions from Cheer Athletics were satisfactory to everyone at the time. Unfortunately, I can only think of a handful of gym owners/coaches that would act in a similar manner. That's why my initial sweeping statement was both parties are at fault.

 

[newcheerdad]

Schools require originals. So they can get over it. lol I believe when my daughter played soccer years ago they required an original as well.

The soccer program I work with requires you to bring an original or certified copy to registration if you're a new player. Has to have the raised seal.

 

[cheerinfo]

Schools require originals. So they can get over it. lol I believe when my daughter played soccer years ago they required an original as well.

I have never given a school an original birth certificate for either of my kids in any state they have attended school in. I just had to show a birth certificate and social security card. But never actually turn in an original or certified copy. Those cost money and take time to obtain if you only have one in your files. So I don't know about requiring originals. Not saying it isn't a way to help stop cheating...but I have NEVER had to provide an original for anything other than obtaining my kids' passports.

 

[ufomom]

The soccer program I work with requires you to bring an original or certified copy to registration if you're a new player. Has to have the raised seal.

Ditto, I have taken an original to soccer/schools, and then they have made their own copy, but they had the original in their hands to verify the seal. I never had to leave the original, just show up with it to be examined.

 

[Mclovin]

I have never given a school an original birth certificate for either of my kids in any state they have attended school in. I just had to show a birth certificate and social security card. But never actually turn in an original or certified copy. Those cost money and take time to obtain if you only have one in your files. So I don't know about requiring originals. Not saying it isn't a way to help stop cheating...but I have NEVER had to provide an original for anything other than obtaining my kids' passports.

Wow. In EVERY school my kids have gone to they have required an original, with a raised seal. A copy was not enough, ever. So much so, that I ended up going to vital records and getting 3-4 certified copies for each of my children so I didn't have to worry about it again. And they're not that expensive. In Illinois I believe it was $10.00 for the first one and only a couple bucks for each additional. If a parent can afford all star cheer, I'm pretty certain they can afford the cost of getting a certified copy of their child's birth certificate. ;)

 

[newcheerdad]

Ditto, I have taken an original to soccer/schools, and then they have made their own copy, but they had the original in their hands to verify the seal. I never had to leave the original, just show up with it to be examined.

Exactly. We don't need to keep the certificate, but we're required to verify that it's legitimate and have a photocopy on file.

 

[newcheerdad]

Wow. In EVERY school my kids have gone to they have required an original, with a raised seal. A copy was not enough, ever. So much so, that I ended up going to vital records and getting 3-4 certified copies for each of my children so I didn't have to worry about it again. And they're not that expensive. In Illinois I believe it was $10.00 for the first one and only a couple bucks for each additional. If a parent can afford all star cheer, I'm pretty certain they can afford the cost of getting a certified copy of their child's birth certificate. ;)

The schools here just need to keep a photocopy of the birth certificate, but they must attest that what they copied was an original or certified copy.

 

[Mom Jeans]

Agree, original birth cert or passport, or any other picture ID, especially when checking in at Worlds. Reg. forms from the previous year should also be used as a tool when someone's age is in question. Also agree the punishment should fit the crime, a gym owner not knowing is one thing, but a gym owner who knowingly uses an athlete of the wrong age is another, sanction the gym and if it hurts the others on the team, sorry but what about all the teams that competed against them in good faith? What about those kids? I also feel that if the parent was involved then the child should be sanctioned. In theory this should only only mean of couple of sad kids.

I don't know of anyone at our gym that doesn't know what team their child should be on based on age because they sure know at tryouts if they child should move up based on age. Someone did tell me they came from a gym where they could fix things so their child could compete on a team they shouldn't have been on. It's very easy to scan any document and change the date. I also heard someone say "they used to change mine all the time" and a parent that came from another gym responded, "everyone does it" I was shocked and disgusted. I have no respect for those coaches anymore, or the parent that blew it off as it was no big deal.

If your gym closes because you choose to value one or two ineligible athletes over the other kids, then that's the choice you've made and you have to deal with the consquences. The rules are the rules, if they're not follwed then they aren't rules. Why do we care if someone gets publically bashed for cheating? If that happens, I blame the cheater. It seems we want to protect the cheater, but the whistle blower's identity isn't protected and they get the short end of the stick when it comes to public bashing.

I seriously had no idea that you could get caught cheating at one event and go to another and still get a bid. I thought sanctioned meant sanctioned from Worlds period. Someone please tell me that's not true.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

Schools require originals. So they can get over it. lol I believe when my daughter played soccer years ago they required an original as well.

Schools don't require originals usually. I've registered my kids in 8 different schools over the last 16 years, and have NEVER provided the originals. but I digress...Back to the topic:

This is why I usually think it's BOTH parties at fault. Sometimes the athlete might be the one who lied in order to cheer a little longer, but I think it's usually the gym owner lying. I think most often it happens when someone needs to fill in at the last minute and the only person they can get it some 19 year old with level 5 skills. So they lie and said 19 y.o. competes on a Senior 2 team for a day. I don't know...I think I like registering every year with USASF, and then signing a form at the gym that you're providing valid information (with the threat of lawsuit for any monies/prizes that have to be given back as a result of said lying--threat of lawsuit on signed contract seems to always get people thinking before they sign lol)

 

[Num1Stunta]

We require original birth certificates to be seen in person at registration, and a copy is kept in our files... last year, someone brought us one from India that was completely unreadable. We now require them to be the ENGLISH version lol

 

[Mclovin]

I agree coast2coastfan. I believe in innocent until proven guilty, but once the guilt is proven, let the criticism begin!! A gym built on unethical grounds doesn't deserve to stay open in the first place.

 

[Mclovin]

Let me rephrase my original post: I had to provide a "certified copy" of my kids' birth certificate to their schools. Those are not expensive to obtain and I think that should be the MINIMUM requirement for proving age to your gym each year.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

I don't know of anyone at our gym that doesn't know what team their child should be on based on age because they sure know at tryouts if they child should move up based on age.
If your gym closes because you choose to value one or two ineligible athletes over the other kids, then that's the choice you've made and you have to deal with the consquences. The rules are the rules, if they're not follwed then they aren't rules. Why do we care if someone gets publically bashed for cheating? If that happens, I blame the cheater. It seems we want to protect the cheater, but the whistle blower's identity isn't protected and they get the short end of the stick when it comes to public bashing.

.

Bold, underline, and red=funniest thing I've ever read. SO TRUE!!!

The other bold part I totally agree with. That's what I was trying to say, but you said it perfectly.

 

[cheer8]

Ok, so I know alot of us have heard and experienced cheating in all-star cheer. We've all seen the people that we know aren't of the right age, but it's really hard to prove it. The process to report it, makes it almost impossible for the accuser to prove that person is too old. So, in a sense, by making it so hard on the accuser and burden of proof, I believe cheating, or using athletes of the wrong age in divisions is rampant at this point.

This weekend, my program Rockstar Cheer experienced this probably like no other program has ever had done to them before. 2 years ago, an athlete competed for Rockstar and I took her to worlds. To be an athlete at our gym, you must first fill out a registration form which has your birth date on it. To compete at Worlds, you must roster your team, each athlete and their birthdate. After that 2009 worlds, I never saw this girl again. I found out later that she was now a coach at another all-star program. A program that is not close to mine, is not a competitor of which I've ever competed against.

This weekend, one of my teams competed against this program, and this athlete was on the floor competing for them, against Rockstar. Well I was in the hospital all weekend, so I didn't see it. We have a pretty much new staff this year. So, the only coaches that remember this girl, happened to see her team compete on Day 2. They called me at the hospital and said, this girl is too old to compete for Senior divisions correct? I said I think so, but we'll have to do some homework before we accuse.

Well, come to find out, this girl has a sister that competes right now on one of my Rockstar teams that was at that competition!! So, one of our coaches asked her, and she said yeah, she'll be 2o next month, lol. So, my staff went to the competition owner, reported this, and they said we must have proof of it. Well, I said, we can go get her mom or dad to prove it if you want, lol. But, we decided to just wait and go get the original registration form of which she filled out. We found it and sure enough, it showed that she will be 20 next month, and in-eligible to compete on a Senior team. WE also found the Registration form we sent into Worlds 2 years ago, which also had the same Birth date.

So, now, we're waiting on the event company to make it's ruling. I'm personally & professionally appalled that a Gym Owner, used one of his own staff, who is too old, to compete on his highest level senior team, in order to secure a win for his program. Maybe that wasn't his intention, but the facts are there, that he had to know she was tool old. Any time you hire an employee, you have to get their birth date, and I'd assume he would have asked a coach if they were 18 as of Aug. 31, 2010.

So, my question is this. What should the penalty be from the event company of which the violation happened? And...What should the penalty be from the USASF, after we file our complaint. This is all based on the fact that this did happen, and they are guilty of what we're accusing.

It is to my knowledge, maybe the first time that a gym will ever file a complaint for an illegal member being used, that actually had proof as we do.

What do you think the penalties should be? Do you blame the athlete that did it, or the gym owner, or both?

There have been complaints with proof and nothing was done... But hopefully it will be better for you