All-Star Am I The Only One? (score Sheet Talk)

[Katybugmom]

Do the judges go from one competition to another. I always thought the judges just worked for one company. We had 3 different competitions that all used the same score sheet but our scores were 30 points apart even though our performances were pretty equal. It was all subjective to those particular judges even though the score sheet was exactly the same. Do all companies have certain training for the judges?

 

[garretttt]

I wouldnt like a universal scoresheet but i wish a lot of comps would do deductions like cheersport does theirs. It makes that you almost always have to hit to win or place high.

 

[coachTSC]

Do the judges go from one competition to another. I always thought the judges just worked for one company. We had 3 different competitions that all used the same score sheet but our scores were 30 points apart even though our performances were pretty equal. It was all subjective to those particular judges even though the score sheet was exactly the same. Do all companies have certain training for the judges?

i can't answer your question, but I can say that even with the same scoresheet, your score can differ greatly based on the talent of the division and number of teams competing that day, as well as the execution of the routine on that specific day... creativity and presentation points will also vary based on that judges opinion

also noticed a HUGE disparity in scores when a competition uses PANEL judging and CATEGORY judging.... Can anyone else speak to this or offer an opinion on the two?

 

[Deleted member 15]

I know judges that work for a variety of companies, using different score sheets, and I know some that stick with one scoring system. Training varies by company/brand.

 

[Ashay]

The judging system as a whole needs to be revamped. There also needs to be some EXTENSIVE training with these judges before they can get certified. At the last 3 competitions we have competed at we have maxed out our score sheet to the fullest and are still not scoring what we should be scoring. And this past weekend was even worse. The scoring was just ridiculous and it was not only for our teams but other gyms as well. I guess we are just tired of making sure our routines exceed the score sheet but then when it comes down to it we are not being scored like we should be. I am not talking about the execution scores just focusing on the dificulty for that specific level.

 

[Deleted member 15]

The judging system as a whole needs to be revamped. There also needs to be some EXTENSIVE training with these judges before they can get certified. At the last 3 competitions we have competed at we have maxed out our score sheet to the fullest and are still not scoring what we should be scoring. And this past weekend was even worse. The scoring was just ridiculous and it was not only for our teams but other gyms as well. I guess we are just tired of making sure our routines exceed the score sheet but then when it comes down to it we are not being scored like we should be. I am not talking about the execution scores just focusing on the dificulty for that specific level.

I don't think the system is perfect, but I have 3 question for you and anyone that would like to answer

1. What would you change about the scoring system?
2. What would you train the judges on? (Be specific enough that someone could create training curriculum)
3. Who would pay for it?

It should be very difficult and close to impossible to max out a scoresheet. Maxing out a section should be possible, but it would come at the expense of other sections. If every team that thought they maxed out a scoresheet was given the score they think they deserve we'd have a lot of ties with perfect scores.

 

[Ashay]

I don't think the system is perfect, but I have 3 question for you and anyone that would like to answer

1. What would you change about the scoring system?
2. What would you train the judges on? (Be specific enough that someone could create training curriculum)
3. Who would pay for it?

It should be very difficult and close to impossible to max out a scoresheet. Maxing out a section should be possible, but it would come at the expense of other sections. If every team that thought they maxed out a scoresheet was given the score they think they deserve we'd have a lot of ties with perfect scores.

I for sure agree with this statement. As a few of us are also certified judges in our gym we know the scoresheets and know that we have maxed out in most areas of our routines. Just an example If you need to have 4 jumps in your jump section and you do 4 jumps, then you need to tumble out of your jumps you do that as well and you have more then the number needed completing the skill with zero deductions you should score a 8/8 , where you should lose your points is in your execution of the skills. So you should be scoring high in the difficulty section.Its crazy that some scores are showing 6/8 in jump difficulty when your exceeding the max. (this was baed on a level 4 routine)

As for changed I wouldnt say I would change the system itself but they way we are certified. More extensive training is needed for all of us. Any suggestions?

 

[Deleted member 15]

I for sure agree with this statement. As a few of us are also certified judges in our gym we know the scoresheets and know that we have maxed out in most areas of our routines. Just an example If you need to have 4 jumps in your jump section and you do 4 jumps, then you need to tumble out of your jumps you do that as well and you have more then the number needed completing the skill with zero deductions you should score a 8/8 , where you should lose your points is in your execution of the skills. So you should be scoring high in the difficulty section.Its crazy that some scores are showing 6/8 in jump difficulty when your exceeding the max. (this was baed on a level 4 routine)
As for changed I wouldnt say I would change the system itself but they way we are certified. More extensive training is needed for all of us. Any suggestions?

Should a team with 5 jumps and jumps to tumbling out score (difficulty wise) a team with 4 jumps? Should 10 outscore 5? What is the max?

I've asked several people specifics about what they would train judges on and have never been given a good answer. I have a few ideas, but none well thought out enough to suggest yet.

 

[King]

Jumps are about execution more than difficulty. Law of diminishing returns there.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Jumps are about execution more than difficulty. Law of diminishing returns there.

I mostly agree for the total score. But on a system like Varsity's where difficulty and execution are separate, how would you answer?

 

[Ashay]

I mostly agree for the total score. But on a system like Varsity's where difficulty and execution are separate, how would you answer?

Yeah see thats exactly my point!! thats why im so annoyed, this was a varisty score sheet. two seperate scores difficulty and execution. If we are maxing out in difficulty why are we not being awarded the correct score. I can see if the execution scores were low. King I am not just talking about jumps Im talking about the whole shabang!! Please give me your thoughts on this cause its making me crazy!!

 

[socratesofcheer]

I don't think the system is perfect, but I have 3 question for you and anyone that would like to answer

1. What would you change about the scoring system?
2. What would you train the judges on? (Be specific enough that someone could create training curriculum)
3. Who would pay for it?

It should be very difficult and close to impossible to max out a scoresheet. Maxing out a section should be possible, but it would come at the expense of other sections. If every team that thought they maxed out a scoresheet was given the score they think they deserve we'd have a lot of ties with perfect scores.

I will answer #3 first, and then after pondering come back and answer #'s 1&2. For this discussion the judging certification will be named SOCRATES OF CHEER JUDGES CERTIFICATION or SOCJC for short.

#3 The potential judge should pay for it. I believe the cost should be, I don't know somewhere between $1,000-$1,500. There should be a continuing education course every season for updates on rules/safety etc. This cost should be $250-$500 per annum. Here are a few of the reasons why:
a. If you want to be a lawyer - you pay for it, if you want to be a real estate agent - you pay for it. Pretty much any occupation that requires a license, requires some type of training that you are responsible for financially . The return comes from the judging opportunities that you will earn while judging (more on that in a minute)
b. Keeps the rif-raf out. If you have a high barrier of entry, only those that are serious will apply.
c. Creates a smaller pool of judges, thus, keeping some sort of standard will be significantly easier.

Now, if this system were to be put in place, the judging fees could go up. If i'm an event producer and I know that all of my judges are "SOCJC CERTIFIED" and they have spent some serious cash to become certified, I have no problem compensating them accordingly. I don't know if cheer judging could become a full time job, but, if someones livelihood was based on judging correctly it would certainly up the standard.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Yeah see thats exactly my point!! thats why im so annoyed, this was a varisty score sheet. two seperate scores difficulty and execution. If we are maxing out in difficulty why are we not being awarded the correct score. I can see if the execution scores were low. King I am not just talking about jumps Im talking about the whole shabang!! Please give me your thoughts on this cause its making me crazy!!

What made/makes you think 4 jumps plus jumps to tumbling should max out the score sheet? If my team does your jump sequence(s) twice, shouldn't I get a higher difficulty score? If King's does it 3 times, should they out score me?

 

[topthat143]

also noticed a HUGE disparity in scores when a competition uses PANEL judging and CATEGORY judging.... Can anyone else speak to this or offer an opinion on the two?[/quote]

we had two comps back to back with some of the same teams in the division at cheersport we out scored one team by nearly 70 points ... and wsf we beat the same team by only 5 points .. both routines hit pretty much the same at both comps ... this is why i think there needs to be a universal score sheet

 

[Ashay]

What made/makes you think 4 jumps plus jumps to tumbling should max out the score sheet? If my team does your jump sequence(s) twice, shouldn't I get a higher difficulty score? If King's does it 3 times, should they out score me?

Im saying 4+ jumps and another jumps to tumbling sequence, im not talking about execution here im talking about difficulty, you should score in the high range if your doing the max allowed in that level. In my last post im agreeing with when you said "But on a system like Varsity's where difficulty and execution are separate, how would you answer". I based my original post off of a varisty score sheet thats why im upset that are scores were low in the difficulty where they should have been higher. Again this is not just about jumps its about the whole thing.