All-Star Am I The Only One? (score Sheet Talk)

[BlueCat]

In my ideal world, there would be far fewer total competitions, but each single competition is typically bigger. This allows for more competition within each division, and allows the event producer to spend more per event and still maintain a profit. This would allow EPs to spend MUCH more on their scoring systems, including paying judges more.

Getting there is tricky.

 

[socratesofcheer]

Yeah see thats exactly my point!! thats why im so annoyed, this was a varisty score sheet. two seperate scores difficulty and execution. If we are maxing out in difficulty why are we not being awarded the correct score. I can see if the execution scores were low. King I am not just talking about jumps Im talking about the whole shabang!! Please give me your thoughts on this cause its making me crazy!!

See if this helps: The difficulty score is a range. Doing certain elements gets you into a specific range. Within that range there are several values that can be assigned to your skills based off of what the judges think of your difficulty. For Example:
JUMPS (not sure of the exact range but we will call it 8-9)
Team #1 Quad toe-touch(hit,hit,hit,hit) - back handspring tuck. might equal an 8.5
Team #2 Pike, Toe-Touch, Front hurdler, Double 9(hit,hit,hit,hit) - back handspring tuck. Might equal 8.8
Team #3 Triple toe-touch, triple pike, triple left front hurdler, triple right front hurdler(hit x 12) - back handspring tuck. Might equal 9.0

Now all teams are scored int he high range, but there is movement within the range to compare all of the teams that are within the high range.

Hope this helps

 

[Ashay]

See if this helps: The difficulty score is a range. Doing certain elements gets you into a specific range. Within that range there are several values that can be assigned to your skills based off of what the judges think of your difficulty. For Example:
JUMPS (not sure of the exact range but we will call it 8-9)
Team #1 Quad toe-touch(hit,hit,hit,hit) - back handspring tuck. might equal an 8.5
Team #2 Pike, Toe-Touch, Front hurdler, Double 9(hit,hit,hit,hit) - back handspring tuck. Might equal 8.8
Team #3 Triple toe-touch, triple pike, triple left front hurdler, triple right front hurdler(hit x 12) - back handspring tuck. Might equal 9.0

Now all teams are scored int he high range, but there is movement within the range to compare all of the teams that are within the high range.

Hope this helps

Thanks for your run down, however I do understand the movement and such but im not talking about a .5 or even a 1 point difference it was more like a 1.5. Its is just frustrating when you being a judge yourself know that your scores were not correct. This could go on for days upon days so Ill quit while im ahead, I just needed to vent a little!!

 

[socratesofcheer]

Thanks for your run down, however I do understand the movement and such but im not talking about a .5 or even a 1 point difference it was more like a 1.5. Its is just frustrating when you being a judge yourself know that your scores were not correct. This could go on for days upon days so Ill quit while im ahead, I just needed to vent a little!!

If what you are saying is true, sounds like you have a pretty good argument for your case.

 

[Ashay]

If what you are saying is true, sounds like you have a pretty good argument for your case.

yeah we tried talking to the event producers but you know how that can be! Ill get over it though

 

[Deleted member 15]

I will answer #3 first, and then after pondering come back and answer #'s 1&2. For this discussion the judging certification will be named SOCRATES OF CHEER JUDGES CERTIFICATION or SOCJC for short.

#3 The potential judge should pay for it. I believe the cost should be, I don't know somewhere between $1,000-$1,500. There should be a continuing education course every season for updates on rules/safety etc. This cost should be $250-$500 per annum. Here are a few of the reasons why:
a. If you want to be a lawyer - you pay for it, if you want to be a real estate agent - you pay for it. Pretty much any occupation that requires a license, requires some type of training that you are responsible for financially . The return comes from the judging opportunities that you will earn while judging (more on that in a minute)
b. Keeps the rif-raf out. If you have a high barrier of entry, only those that are serious will apply.
c. Creates a smaller pool of judges, thus, keeping some sort of standard will be significantly easier.

Now, if this system were to be put in place, the judging fees could go up. If i'm an event producer and I know that all of my judges are "SOCJC CERTIFIED" and they have spent some serious cash to become certified, I have no problem compensating them accordingly. I don't know if cheer judging could become a full time job, but, if someones livelihood was based on judging correctly it would certainly up the standard.

#2 is the killer question. If you can't figure out what to teach me you aren't going to improve the situation.

I don't think making the judges pay will work because I don't think enough of the judges you want to keep will do it without at least one condition, a guaranteed return on the training investment if I pass the SOCJC course.

I don't know where this level is, but if you set the barrier to high you won't have enough judges, either now or in the future. There's a level at which people, like myself, that judge 10+ events a year will take the course because we know we'll get enough events to make it worthwhile, but that level may stop people from entering the judges people because they don't know if they'll get any events. This probably won't be noticed immediately, but as existing judges exit the pool there will not be anyone to replace them.

All of this is irrelevant if you can't answer #2.

 

[Deleted member 15]

we had two comps back to back with some of the same teams in the division at cheersport we out scored one team by nearly 70 points ... and wsf we beat the same team by only 5 points .. both routines hit pretty much the same at both comps ... this is why i think there needs to be a universal score sheet

Jammy uses a 10 point scale, Varsity uses a 100 point scale and Cheersport uses a 400 or 500 point scale.

 

[socratesofcheer]

#2 is the killer question. If you can't figure out what to teach me you aren't going to improve the situation.

I don't think making the judges pay will work because I don't think enough of the judges you want to keep will do it without at least one condition, a guaranteed return on the training investment if I pass the SOCJC course.

I don't know where this level is, but if you set the barrier to high you won't have enough judges, either now or in the future. There's a level at which people, like myself, that judge 10+ events a year will take the course because we know we'll get enough events to make it worthwhile, but that level may stop people from entering the judges people because they don't know if they'll get any events. This probably won't be noticed immediately, but as existing judges exit the pool there will not be anyone to replace them.

All of this is irrelevant if you can't answer #2.

I wholeheartedly disagree. If you only judge 5-7 events per year and each event pays $750-$1000 per, would you still judge? If there are only a few(relatively speaking) people that take the course, you are pretty much guaranteed to have enough events to make it worthwhile.
I also think limiting the number of people entering the judging realm is a good thing. Also, if the number of events are cut in half, then there aren't a many judges needed.

If all EP's have to use SOCJC judges, a bonus may be there are less events.

I'm still pondering #2

 

[Deleted member 15]

In my ideal world, there would be far fewer total competitions, but each single competition is typically bigger. This allows for more competition within each division, and allows the event producer to spend more per event and still maintain a profit. This would allow EPs to spend MUCH more on their scoring systems, including paying judges more.

Getting there is tricky.

I'm with you.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Thanks for your run down, however I do understand the movement and such but im not talking about a .5 or even a 1 point difference it was more like a 1.5. Its is just frustrating when you being a judge yourself know that your scores were not correct. This could go on for days upon days so Ill quit while im ahead, I just needed to vent a little!!

If your difficulty was not in the highest range for your level there should have been a note on the score sheet saying why.

 

[socratesofcheer]

I don't think the system is perfect, but I have 3 question for you and anyone that would like to answer

1. What would you change about the scoring system?
2. What would you train the judges on? (Be specific enough that someone could create training curriculum)
3. Who would pay for it?

It should be very difficult and close to impossible to max out a scoresheet. Maxing out a section should be possible, but it would come at the expense of other sections. If every team that thought they maxed out a scoresheet was given the score they think they deserve we'd have a lot of ties with perfect scores.

Ok I have come up with my answer for #2.
Since I feel that the varsity score sheet is currently the best one, I'll use it for this discussion.

I am keeping the post short, because it could go on for days.

The judges should be thoroughly trained on
-- The ins and outs of the scoring grid. (is hit,hit,hit, pull worth less than hit x 12 pull)
-- The level rules, and any loopholes that coaches will try and exploit.
-- Technique on stunting, tumbling etc. Some of the judges are/former coaches. However, there are plenty that are not. Having coaches come in and teach a "stunt class" may shed some light on the difficulty of some stunting elements.
-- Extensive video review of routines, to "play-out" various scoring situations.

 

[Ashay]

If your difficulty was not in the highest range for your level there should have been a note on the score sheet saying why.

There was not.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I wholeheartedly disagree. If you only judge 5-7 events per year and each event pays $750-$1000 per, would you still judge? If there are only a few(relatively speaking) people that take the course, you are pretty much guaranteed to have enough events to make it worthwhile.
I also think limiting the number of people entering the judging realm is a good thing. Also, if the number of events are cut in half, then there aren't a many judges needed.

If all EP's have to use SOCJC judges, a bonus may be there are less events.

I'm still pondering #2

I've been Rules certified twice, including currently. Both times the cost was paid by an event producer with the understanding I would judge so many events for them that season. I don't know if I would have done the certification if I had to pay upfront on my own. I would still know the rules, but probably wouldn't be certified.

Applying that to the SOCJC, I don't think I would do it. I might, but I definitely have reservations.

I agree limiting the number of people in the judges pool is a good idea, but I want to make sure the pool is large enough for the demand and the good ones stay in the pool. I'm not sure how to make this happen.

I've been pondering #2 off and on for over a year. I still don't have an answer I love.

 

[topthat143]

Jammy uses a 10 point scale, Varsity uses a 100 point scale and Cheersport uses a 400 or 500 point scale.

its just so funny .. if it were a cheersport or uca/nca comp. im pretty confident that all our teams would have placed differently .. next season we are picking comps. that are more geared to our routines and where judging is the way we prefer!

 

[yojaehs]

In regards to score sheet I am 100% in favor of a Universal Score Sheet. I believe it encourages consistency. I don't think it will happen anytime soon HOWEVER I do believe that Gym Owners have the control.

Ex. All company's competitions only had Hard floor. One company chose to use spring, numbers to THAT competition grew (decreasing #'s at other comps) therefore more and now ALL company's use spring.

If you don't like a company's score sheet then DON'T GO TO THAT COMPETITION or SHUT UP! If lots of gyms don't compete there bc of their score sheet then they will either go out of business or change either one is a win win.

BlueCat I believe you are dead on with many of your points and I agree that I would like to compete against as many as possible at every competition (which is the only thing I like about World's, it forces all 5's to compete against each other, again ONLY) BUT as long as there are 123409328510349 company's (my #'s might be off by 1 or 2) then competition is going to be hard to find. Literally my gym asks company's to post that we are attending as late as possible bc gyms run. As long as there are other options there is nothing that can be done.