All-Star D2 Summit Rule Changes

[cheer25mom]

We have a Goliath at pretty much every local competition. It's like they take turns traveling in to clobber us. As long as they can collect bids by doing so it will continue. If you take D2 out of the equation completely, there isn't a competition from a major event producer where it won't happen because all of them seem to be handing out bids to something now. At least with D2, small gyms get put in a separate division and have a hope of winning that.The new rules this year requiring 15 for a division split made even that hard to do though.


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[cheernerd5678]

I think about Worlds for example.

We do not have D1 and D2 Worlds and there are small gyms who do quite well. (Ex: Vizion, Florida Top Dog, etc.)

Are they all winning? No, but cracking top 10 is cool when you're not a Cheer Athletics/CEA/etc.

But are they true small gyms? From their Facebook pages it looks like Vizion has over 125 athletes (tryout numbers last year went above 125) and Top Dog likely does as well (9 teams). I know those were just examples but I think what we consider "small" gyms achieving success at worlds is usually not about their size and more about how well known they are. If those gyms are under 125 I'd think they're just under, but there definitely aren't any 70 athlete gyms making finals at worlds.

 

[cheer25mom]

But are they true small gyms? From their Facebook pages it looks like Vizion has over 125 athletes (tryout numbers last year went above 125) and Top Dog likely does as well (9 teams). I know those were just examples but I think what we consider "small" gyms achieving success at worlds is usually not about their size and more about how well known they are. If those gyms are under 125 I'd think they're just under, but there definitely aren't any 70 athlete gyms making finals at worlds.

Most of those gyms are well over 125 athletes.

 

[randomactsofcheer]

But are you competing against Goliath every time? When my daughter was at small gym for many years she competed a lot of local and even some further away comps against similar "David" programs, and then there were always a couple of competitions each year where they met up with Goliath. I would just think this end of the year "ultimate destination" "climb" competition would want to be one of those up against everyone types. As far as the stacking and sandbagging... don't even get me started. I am hoping the new rules do away with that but it seems there's always some loophole they will find.

CP's gym went up against one or more "Goliaths" at every competition for the last two seasons, even at the non-Varsity competitions we attended.

There were usually 2-3 mega gyms (sometimes more) and each of those gyms usually had more than one of their locations at the competition.

 

[rdavis4]

I disagree that it sets them up to "fail". It may be tougher... that win may be less likely...but fail?

Again, we spent many years in a true (only three teams and that was using crossovers) gym. I totally understand the difficulties and frustrations small gyms face. But when those girls beat the big guys (whether it be 1/2 or 4/5)... and they did (especially one year when they were just so loaded with heart and passion) the joy was like nothing else!

As a former athlete myself looking back and thinking what do I remember? I remember being a high school kid and our coach decided we should have a fun dual meet against one of the top colleges in the state. I remember getting up on the blocks and seeing the World Record holder in the lane next to me and knowing there was no way I could beat her but that I was going to give it everything I had because OMG I was in the lane next to THE.WORLD.RECORD.HOLDER! It's a memory and feeling that sticks with me way more than the first place finishes in my career.

I do not have an issue with there being 101 summits for every type of gym. It's a big "whatever" for me. But I do not think it is done with the athletes' best interests in mind... It is being done so the gyms can advertise "winner" (and grow as a result) and so the powers that be can rake in the money. (eta- I feel the same way about summit 1, 2 or 10,000. So many of these new "you are the ultimate universal galactic champion" comps are more about $ than anything else in my opinion)

This is how our large senior level 5 is...we are a small D1 gym in Kansas. Our owner has said obviously our level 5 looks very different than the ones we go up against; we don't have nearly as many boys or kids on the team in general. For our kids, they like that they get to throw the skills they have and they LOVE being up there and seeing all of those amazing gyms.

 

[Beans100]

Has anyone tried comparing the D1 winners to the D2 winners and seeing if they are reasonably matched? I'm not well versed on score sheets, so I'd have no idea where to start. This would have to come from someone's own perspective since comparative scoring won't work here.

I think that level 5 is an exception because if you are a small gym with levels 1-3, then those who do hit level 5 skills aren't likely to stay. So, fielding level 5 team at small gym is a challenge since some of the talent pool has left and those who are remaining might not be as strong. But, for levels 1-4, it is possible for a small gym to have just as much skill as a mega; it takes patience but proper technique and solid coaching makes a difference.

 

[NJ Coach]

Let me ask you this, how many D2 sized gyms won D1 summit before the split?

Don't know how many won, but I can tell you that the small gyms make me more nervous than the mega gyms. I'm perfectly ok with those gyms not coming to Summit ;)

 

[amy1k]

I think gyms from D2 gyms can definitely hold their own at these competitions against big gyms...I just think it's harder to actually GET a bid. Maybe I'm the paranoid one? [emoji23] It just seemed like over this last season, no matter how well our team did, the bids were going to big gyms who had travelled specifically to get Summit bids.

Like, I feel like the EP wanted us to go D2??? Once we went D2, we got a paid bid with the highest score of the competition.

 

[cheer25mom]

I think gyms from D2 gyms can definitely hold their own at these competitions against big gyms...I just think it's harder to actually GET a bid. Maybe I'm the paranoid one? [emoji23] It just seemed like over this last season, no matter how well our team did, the bids were going to big gyms who had travelled specifically to get Summit bids.

Like, I feel like the EP wanted us to go D2??? Once we went D2, we got a paid bid with the highest score of the competition.

YEP!!!

 

[alexamarysouza]

I completely agree with @oncecoolcoachnowmom . Why do we need a whole separate event for small gyms? There isn't one for Worlds, and there's plenty of small gyms that blow big names out of the water. I'll take the program I graduated from for example- we were technically JUST under the max for a small gym, but we didn't want to be just competing against small gyms, so we opted to compete in the regular divisions even when there was a small gym option. And we won. Everywhere. We took 2/4 eligible teams to Summit in 2013 and 2014. And we reached finals and top 5 in some of the most competitive divisions. I think when we set apart a whole event for small gyms, it's basically leaving them to stop advancing and stop progressing along the same lines as a big gym. Sure, they probably can't afford to have the $10,000 choreographer that someone mentioned earlier, but they could work on getting their raw skills up to comparison...because what I see from them in my area is kinda pitiful, quite honestly. And that's why they continuously get bought out or sell, because those big gyms see how much potential they have to be great...I guess yeah, I am biased because I came from a small gym that was very successful at D1, but that's just me.
I guess what I'm getting at is the idea of "quality over quantity". You don't need to have over 125 athletes to have quality, competitive teams that can hold their ground against the gyms that have more quantity.

 

[amy1k]

And I DO think it's paranoia on my part...at least partially. I think that paranoia is fed by the lack of transparency by EPs.

 

[Boughetto]

And I DO think it's paranoia on my part...at least partially. I think that paranoia is fed by the lack of scores released by EPs.

I'm all for releasing scores after all events. Seeing 1st-10th place doesn't really matter to me I want to see scores especially if I was at that event and watched those teams.

 

[Andrea]

Does anyone know if these smaller locations can pull from their larger locations athletes if an athlete gets injured or they need crossovers at the Summit? I don't know why I thought that was a no-no in the past but, if they can, then they really shouldn't have any issues.

I'm pretty sure the smaller location cannot pull from the larger gym and maintain its D2 status. We have two satellite gym locations that were going for D2 bids this past season (3 teams at one location, 3-4 teams at the other) and they could help each other out for injuries/cross-overs, but no kids could come from the main gym location to the satellite gyms for the D2 bids/competitions. It made it kind of difficult with a 3 hour drive in between the locations.

 

[amy1k]

I'm pretty sure the smaller location cannot pull from the larger gym and maintain its D2 status. We have two satellite gym locations that were going for D2 bids this past season (3 teams at one location, 3-4 teams at the other) and they could help each other out for injuries/cross-overs, but no kids could come from the main gym location to the satellite gyms for the D2 bids/competitions. It made it kind of difficult with a 3 hour drive in between the locations.

I believe this is probably true...or at least implied. But, are there actually rules that say an athlete cannot compete for two gyms? I know they cannot compete for two gyms at the same event, but are there rules that prohibit an athlete from being registered at two gyms? I'm not suggesting any teams did this sort of thing, but I don't think it is prohibited. Obviously a gym would need to remain under 125 to maintain D2 status...even with an additional athlete from another program.

Somewhat related...Our gym, for one competition, had teams going for d1 AND D2 bids. I was curious if you could crossover from D1 Summit to D2 (regardless of the complications, I was just curious) and I never saw a rule prohibiting it.

 

[randomactsofcheer]

And I DO think it's paranoia on my part...at least partially. I think that paranoia is fed by the lack of transparency by EPs.

I don't think you're being paranoid. We had the same experience this season. I do think many small gyms can hold their own at the D1 Summit. But I agree that actually getting a bid to attend Summit is where the challenge lies.

I think one of two things should happen: Continue with D1 and D2 Summits as separate events OR implement stricter crossover rules (the same ones that are being implemented for the 2017 D1 Summit) at every regular season event. Also, maybe for larger bid events (10+ bids), stipulate that one bid must go to the highest scoring small gym team.