All-Star Impact Of Building Being 40% Of Score

[King]

I don't really tumble. Never had the chance to learn it as it is just not as enforced here in Germany. Having a springfloor is really, really rare for a cheerleading team. Opposed to that there is a vast majority of teams that doesn't even have proper mats to train on. Actually, I used to hate stunting on mats, before i got used to it at my current team.

So I'm biased here.

For me personally, I'm a strong stunter (base) and I love it. It is what makes cheerleading cheerleading.
Honestly the long tumbling sections in routines bore me, especially when it's just cross tumbling and cross tumbling and some more cross tumbling. I don't mean any disrespect. I'm currently trying to learn a standing backtuck and I hav deep respect for everyonme who can even throw a running backhandspring/tuck!
But to me a whole sequence of just tumbling will never be really what I think cheerleading is.

Add tumbling to stunts, choreograph it into the routine so there are still other eye catchers. That would be perfect for me, also as a spectator.

So I'm actually all for these 40%. ;)

Are there many allstar gyms or facilities in Germany? And if there any do they have people who's entire job it is to work at a cheerleading gym?

 

[yojaehs]

Just FYI "stunting" is not what makes cheerleading cheerleading. Stunting makes acro acro. What makes cheerleading cheerleading is a COMBINATION of stunting, tumbling, jumps, dance etc.

 

[Aussiekat]

Are there many allstar gyms or facilities in Germany? And if there any do they have people who's entire job it is to work at a cheerleading gym?

Not from Germany, but kinda related because I'm an int'l kid cheer kid. Where I'm from there are only a handful of actual allstar gyms, and with a country roughly the same geographic size as the US and a tenth of the population, they're really hard to get to. There are a lot of standalone teams associated with gymnastics facilities or uni/college teams that are allstar (we don't have a tradition of cheerleading for other sports). Most younger gymnasts are discouraged from joining cheer as it's got a bit of a stigma of being for those who "couldn't make it" as gymnasts. It's not easy to find places that will do tumbling classes or privates that aren't astronomically expensive. So if you choose cheer instead of gymnastics, you're not likely to progress as well at tumbling. Also, most coaches are stunt proficient and tumbling deficient. There just isn't the background and history of cheer to establish that kind of well-roundedness here in coaches or cheerleaders, probably won't be for a while (like, 50 years or so). Pretty much every coach has another "real" job or else juggles an assortment of teams that train out of whatever facilities they can hire -from dead mat circus warehouses to parks or gymnastics gyms (which don't have full floors so we end up spending most of warmups figuring out spacing at comps instead of actually warming up). I love the sport and would love to be more well-rounded as a cheerleader, but the odds aren't good :( To me, this score sheet is more "universal" as it takes into account the experiences of cheerleaders internationally, not just America. Don't get me wrong, I think tumbling is an incredibly important aspect of cheer and think it should remain so, but I like the slightly lesser weighting.

Let me put it this way: when I fly I feel indomitable, like I'm defying physics and the limits of physical athletic perfection; I trust my base to not drop, my teammates to be there for our pyramids to flow. I fly metres into the air and do ridiculous things that makes my father want to wrap me up in cotton wool and strap on a helmet to keep my brains in. It takes a whole team to stunt, but only an individual tumbles (obviously synchronised with other individuals). If allstar is a team sport, then weighting in favour of a team's ability to work together is a fair call from my -very biased ;) - perspective.

 

[King]

Not from Germany, but kinda related because I'm an int'l kid cheer kid. Where I'm from there are only a handful of actual allstar gyms, and with a country roughly the same geographic size as the US and a tenth of the population, they're really hard to get to. There are a lot of standalone teams associated with gymnastics facilities or uni/college teams that are allstar (we don't have a tradition of cheerleading for other sports). Most younger gymnasts are discouraged from joining cheer as it's got a bit of a stigma of being for those who "couldn't make it" as gymnasts. It's not easy to find places that will do tumbling classes or privates that aren't astronomically expensive. So if you choose cheer instead of gymnastics, you're not likely to progress as well at tumbling. Also, most coaches are stunt proficient and tumbling deficient. There just isn't the background and history of cheer to establish that kind of well-roundedness here in coaches or cheerleaders, probably won't be for a while (like, 50 years or so). Pretty much every coach has another "real" job or else juggles an assortment of teams that train out of whatever facilities they can hire -from dead mat circus warehouses to parks or gymnastics gyms (which don't have full floors so we end up spending most of warmups figuring out spacing at comps instead of actually warming up). I love the sport and would love to be more well-rounded as a cheerleader, but the odds aren't good :( To me, this score sheet is more "universal" as it takes into account the experiences of cheerleaders internationally, not just America. Don't get me wrong, I think tumbling is an incredibly important aspect of cheer and think it should remain so, but I like the slightly lesser weighting.

Let me put it this way: when I fly I feel indomitable, like I'm defying physics and the limits of physical athletic perfection; I trust my base to not drop, my teammates to be there for our pyramids to flow. I fly metres into the air and do ridiculous things that makes my father want to wrap me up in cotton wool and strap on a helmet to keep my brains in. It takes a whole team to stunt, but only an individual tumbles (obviously synchronised with other individuals). If allstar is a team sport, then weighting in favour of a team's ability to work together is a fair call from my -very biased ;) - perspective.

Just so I understand... stunting and pyramids are team based because if one person messes up then a stunt falls or a pyramid side may not hit and you can lose.

But tumbling and jumps are NOT team based because if one person is off timing or busts or doesnt do their job exactly right a team gets deductions and may lose?

I just don't buy into it. Jumps and standing tumbling have always been team based. Getting 10, 20, or 30 people to tumble together on the correct count (or jump on the correct count) takes HOURS and HOURS of practice together. I will concede running tumbling in the past was more 'individualistic', but with synched running tumbling being a bigger deal tumbling is as much a team part as anything else.

Could you throw 20 random talented people together and jump as good does practicing all year? If you could then I would say jumps are not a team activity. But, after watching all our teams jump for 6 years now I can tell you jumps don't just happen. They take a lot of practice as a team to make happen.

So, if someone can explain to me how the entire team jumping in synch is not a team thing, then I might understand all this better.

 

[Emily Jane]

Not from Germany, but kinda related because I'm an int'l kid cheer kid. Where I'm from there are only a handful of actual allstar gyms, and with a country roughly the same geographic size as the US and a tenth of the population, they're really hard to get to. There are a lot of standalone teams associated with gymnastics facilities or uni/college teams that are allstar (we don't have a tradition of cheerleading for other sports). Most younger gymnasts are discouraged from joining cheer as it's got a bit of a stigma of being for those who "couldn't make it" as gymnasts. It's not easy to find places that will do tumbling classes or privates that aren't astronomically expensive. So if you choose cheer instead of gymnastics, you're not likely to progress as well at tumbling. Also, most coaches are stunt proficient and tumbling deficient. There just isn't the background and history of cheer to establish that kind of well-roundedness here in coaches or cheerleaders, probably won't be for a while (like, 50 years or so). Pretty much every coach has another "real" job or else juggles an assortment of teams that train out of whatever facilities they can hire -from dead mat circus warehouses to parks or gymnastics gyms (which don't have full floors so we end up spending most of warmups figuring out spacing at comps instead of actually warming up). I love the sport and would love to be more well-rounded as a cheerleader, but the odds aren't good :( To me, this score sheet is more "universal" as it takes into account the experiences of cheerleaders internationally, not just America. Don't get me wrong, I think tumbling is an incredibly important aspect of cheer and think it should remain so, but I like the slightly lesser weighting.

Let me put it this way: when I fly I feel indomitable, like I'm defying physics and the limits of physical athletic perfection; I trust my base to not drop, my teammates to be there for our pyramids to flow. I fly metres into the air and do ridiculous things that makes my father want to wrap me up in cotton wool and strap on a helmet to keep my brains in. It takes a whole team to stunt, but only an individual tumbles (obviously synchronised with other individuals). If allstar is a team sport, then weighting in favour of a team's ability to work together is a fair call from my -very biased ;) - perspective.

England is sort of like this (except it's nowhere near the size of the US geographically so teams aren't as spread out). Not that many teams have access to spring floors, and if they do they are often gymnastic floors. There is probably less than 10 gyms here with their own facility with a spring floor, tumble track, etc. We are definitely progressing though and there are teams with phenomenal tumbling when you consider they are an international teams. Cheer started here in England during the early 1980s as sideline dancers for the european NFL teams and now we have teams placing in the top 10 at Worlds :) I went off on a tangent, sorry :oops:

 

[Deleted member 15]

One can jump and tumble alone. Another person is needed to stunt.

 

[King]

One can jump and tumble alone. Another person is needed to stunt.

You forgot to add 'to practice'. But to compete BOTH require a team. Yes?

 

[King]

England is sort of like this (except it's nowhere near the size of the US geographically so teams aren't as spread out). Not that many teams have access to spring floors, and if they do they are often gymnastic floors. There is probably less than 10 gyms here with their own facility with a spring floor, tumble track, etc. We are definitely progressing though and there are teams with phenomenal tumbling when you consider they are an international teams. Cheer started here in England during the early 1980s as sideline dancers for the european NFL teams and now we have teams placing in the top 10 at Worlds :) I went off on a tangent, sorry :oops:

Good tangent. Unless a program can teach tumbling to help create earning potential it will be a ways off from owning its own facility. They aren't cheap... and even Stingray with our 6 floors and 19 teams (I so got that number wrong) still does not max out the floors enough to help earn enough to keep the place going without tumbling.

(not done to brag but to prove a point)

 

[cheer8]

The issue is what do you think cheerleading is?

Cheerleading is stunts! We invented it!

No, we didn't. Take a look at acro videos or even some 100 year old circus videos where people are doing some amazing stunting skills. We didn't invent stunting, but we did organize it, legitimize it, give it set attributes and start scoring it.

Building is harder than tumbling!

I disagree. It is equally as hard in completely different ways. Tumbling takes years to learn and perfect, where as a stunt group doesnt look at learning skills to use 3 years from now. They think about this season only for their stunting skills. That doesn't mean stunting isn't difficult, but we are comparing apples and Oranges here.

Lowering the tumbling worth will not decrease tumbling class.

Yes it will. Let us take Worlds for example. In small senior the winners had the strongest advantage because of their tumbling. If the Worlds scoresheet had no adjustment and was cemented for 10+ years what would ever coach picking their small senior team concentrate on first? Choosing a strong tumbling team first. Now we have a reverse situation with the Varsity scoresheet. The team with the best building will outscore the team that focussed on tumbling too much. We are going to choose teams MORE focussed on building, and tumbling will be secondary. How does that affect the bottom line?

I once had a dad watch his daughter do a triple toe back and say to me, half jokingly, that is a $5,000 back tuck (before anyone questions the amount, follow along). $5,000 of tumbling lessons, privates, open gyms, extra conditioning classes...everything. How much money does each standing back tuck OR full represent? If you look at a small senior team and all of them have fulls, all that represent ~$100,000 worth of instruction. Now with less tumbling requirement squad fulls is way less on the radar. I can choose a team with 12 fulls but are WAY better stunters. The 8 girls who do not have fulls only represent $3,000 worth of tumbling. So, $2000 off the 8 athletes is $16,000 less. That isn't $16,000 off a 'gym', but $16,000 out of the industry.... from one team. And that has trickle down effect all the way to Tiny 1. If Mini 2 doesnt 'require' backwalkover backhandspring now to win, then making tiny's take that backwalkover class first is a lot harder to sell. The ripple affects of this are not well thought out.

Thank you for writing this so clearly for everyone to understand! Thank You Thank you Thank You!

 

[cheer8]

I just see people putting a handy cap on our sport, we have already given levels so let's keep the score sheet equal... I said this in another post as kingston said... Tumbling classes will decline if this sticks and then it won't matter if you are a large gym or small gym you won't be able to earn enough money to keep some of the facilities people have going.
Keep the industry growing people and you all just looking after yourselves, stop being stingy. If the industry dies down you people that are being stingy will fall as well, especially in this economy.
EQUAL SCORING = GREAT INDUSTRY,
KEEP MESSING WITH THE SCORE SHEETS= INDUSTRY FALLING, then event producers, gym owners and kids loose what they have built up for so long, which would be really sad and a lot of people upset=:banghead:

 

[Deleted member 15]

You forgot to add 'to practice'. But to compete BOTH require a team. Yes?

No. I've judged many individuals and almost all of them jumped and tumbled, but I have yet to see one stunt.

Even in team routines you could jump or tumble using one person at a time. Your score would suffer, but you could do it. You cannot stunt using only one person.

 

[King]

No. I've judged many individuals and almost all of them jumped and tumbled, but I have yet to see one stunt.

Even in team routines you could jump or tumble using one person at a time. Your score would suffer, but you could do it. You cannot stunt using only one person.

I disagree, you would be doing individual skills, not synched skills. You need at least 2 people to do synched skills. How would your score synch if no one did them?

And, this is all silly anyway, you could never win doing that. Show me a team that has won because of individuals (in the past 5 years in the modern age of cheer).

 

[King]

In fact, we saw a HUGE example of this at Worlds. Cali small senior got beat because they didnt do a large synch tumbling section... but I would say had the harder stunts. So I would like to know how individuals tumbling (which Cali had some of the better individual tumbling skills) is the same as team tumbling?

 

[Deleted member 15]

I disagree, you would be doing individual skills, not synched skills. You need at least 2 people to do synched skills. How would your score synch if no one did them?

And, this is all silly anyway, you could never win doing that. Show me a team that has won because of individuals (in the past 5 years in the modern age of cheer).

The same way I score stunts for individuals.

You are correct in synced skills requiring multiple people, but neither tumbling nor jumping requires multiple people.

You keep adding synchronization to the conversation, but the score sheet that started this doesn't have that category.

Oh, and per earlier conversations I believe someone suggested we replace tumbling classes with stunting classes. Issue is flyers will pay for stunt classes, bases will not. That is only 25% of a stunt group to pull from. Everyone has to tumble. As well if you have a stunt class and one person misses (a base or flyer) the whole group suffers. If someone misses a tumbling class ONLY the athlete suffers (in the running of the class). What would happen if 8 bases showed up to stunt class and not a single flyer was there?

Doesn't the bolded statement demonstrate tumbling is an individual skill?

 

[King]

The same way I score stunts for individuals.

You are correct in synced skills requiring multiple people, but neither tumbling nor jumping requires multiple people.

You keep adding synchronization to the conversation, but the score sheet that started this doesn't have that category.

Doesn't the bolded statement demonstrate tumbling is an individual skill?

Individual to practice, not to compete. And we have received the comment before that we need more synched passes in our tumbling sections. I mean, this cant be a giant realization to people that if you tumble in synch lots of people doing hard skills your scores go up, right?

As far as stunting goes, does flexibility matter for stunts and scoring? I feel like you can always work on flexibility on your own, and if flexibility matters then that is an individual part of stunting you can do on your own. Does that mean whatever percentage worth of your score that is body positions is individualistic?